For Christians.....a devotional

[Joe_Cool]

*Originally posted by Monty *
Well, Joe, you’ve apologized for one half of the wrong. And refused to recognize the other half.

The other half I will not apologize for. I don’t consider the Mormon church to be a Christian church. And I don’t see that changing any time soon, whether you like it or not.

But who cares? I’m not the one who will sit in judgment of you. All you need to care about is what Jesus thinks of you and your church.

**And my overall opinion of you remains the same based on my observation of you, not any preconceptions based on lies about the group you belong to. **

Likewise. I don’t dislike you because you’re a Mormon, I simply think you’re misled because you’re a Mormon. I dislike you because you appear to be a hateful jerk. I’d still buy you dinner if you had nothing to eat, give you a place to sleep if you had none, etc. But I still can see that you act like a jerk towards anybody who disagrees with you, and I still don’t like you.

And again, It’s Jesus’s opinion of you that matters, not mine. So who cares? Am I so important to you that you need to foam at the mouth because I don’t like you or accept your faith as the true one? What’s your deal? Want to know how much what you think of me matters in my life? Not a whit.

So accept my apology and acknowledgement of error and get over it. If I’m wrong, then you can laugh at me when you’re the god of your own world, but until then, it appears to me that the Mormon church is polytheistic.

Journal of Discourses Vol 3, p 93:
Man is made an agent to himself before his God; he is organized for the express purpose, that he may become like his master. You recollect one of the Apostle’s sayings, that when we see Him, we shall be like Him; and again, we shall become Gods, even the sons of God.
–Brigham Young

Journal of Discourses Vol 6 pp 3-4:
God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens…

…**I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the vail, so that you may see.

These are incomprehensible ideas to some; but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did…and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you,—namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one, —from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power.
–Joseph Smith

Journal of Discourse vol 7 p 333:
He [God] is our Father—the Father of our spirits, and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are, and is now an exalted Being.

How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds, and when men were not passing through the same ordeals that we are now passing through. That course has been from all eternity, and it is and will be to all eternity. You cannot comprehend this; but when you can, it will be to you a matter of great consolation.
–Brigham Young

==================================

Mark 12:29:
The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord.
–Jesus

Exodus 20:3:
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
God the Father

John 10:30:
I and my Father are one.
–Jesus

Hebrews 1:1-8:
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Quite a contrast, wouldn’t you say?
Apologies for the hijack.

[Monty]

Not accepted, especiallly since you just insulted me outside the Pit.

[David_B]

[Moderator Hat: ON]

Joe_Cool said:

I dislike you because you appear to be a hateful jerk.

And you appear to be unfamiliar with the rules about insulting other users. I find this odd since you were specifically warned about this exactly a month ago – by not one but two moderators!

You are walking on very thin ice here.

---

David B, SDMB Great Debates Moderator

[Moderator Hat: OFF]

[iampunha]

His4ever, let me, if you would please, ask you an honest question. I don’t know how you’re going to answer, I don’t have any response planned for any hypothetical answer, I don’t mean to be rude. I’m curious.

The majority of people on this website, including some whom I daresay you’ve come to at least halfway respect, have suggested to you that your method of evangelism and drawing people closer to God/Christ/the Church has been largely ineffective (save for one person who is unsure whether or not she would prefer to ignore facts and keep her faith or challenge it and probably lose it, if only for an hour:().

“I hope that I wouldn’t call him or her stupid. I might express that if they made the wrong decision that they were deciding something they may later regret. After all if the boy or girl continues as they are, they just may wind up in jail. That statement could be true, you know.”

That the statement could be true by no means is an indication that it ought to be said, would be a useful deterrent, etc. Scaring people into going to school is the exact opposite of what the media has been trying to push for years, and what I happen to think is much more effective: instead of making everything else seem horrible, you push that school is good. Simple reasons, and which I can expand on if you like. It’s amazing someone didn’t come up with this a long time ago, but whatever.

However, which do you think would work better … your plan, or a plan that would get a child excited about going to school, learning lots of cool stuff, hanging out with friends, after-school activities (whether academic or athletic), etc? What you’re describing is, I think, “tough love”. At a gathering recently with Poly, gobear and a few others, I overheard those two discussing the issue of tough love as it relates to life, death, christianity, etc. To briefly paraphrase what Poly said (and Poly, if I’m wrong, it’s only because my memory is rather hazy and I was surrounded by beautiful people. I’m sorry, dude, but sitting across from Lucretia and the friend she brought kinda distracted me;)):

“Tough love generally works and is viable in a situation where two specific things are true: there is no other seemingly viable option, and the person loves and depends on you enough to realize that s/he needs to change very soon or very bad things will happen”.

I humbly submit to you that this approach to converting people might not be the best idea. You disagree, or so I’ve gleaned from several of your posts.

My question to you, therefore, is this: how can we go about showing you a more effective way of witnessing God’s love, and how could you be persuaded to adopt it?

[Joe_Cool]

*Originally posted by Monty *
**Not accepted, especiallly since you just insulted me outside the Pit. **

So Monty, how’s about addressing the content of my post, instead of focusing only on how I wrongly accused you of being a hateful jerk (I guess I should have said your posts come across as hateful and jerky, instead, eh?)?

Or was that just a dodge, to avoid the question?

[Joe_Cool]

Also, what bearing does an unrelated insult outside the pit have to do with my admission of error regarding your church?

Since you reject my apology for mischaracterizing the Mormon church as not accepting the divinity of Jesus, shall I then retract it? No problem here either way.

[Joe_Cool]

*Originally posted by Joe_Cool *
(I guess I should have said your posts come across as hateful and jerky TO ME, instead, eh?)

Further qualifier inserted and bolded, just to be clear that I am referring to the posts, not the poster.

[vivalostwages]

*Originally posted by Jack Batty *
**I think George Carlin said it best:

"Religion has convinced people that there’s an invisible man living in the sky… Who watches every thing you do every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a list of 10 specific things he doesn’t want you to do. And if you do any of these things, he will send you to a special place, of burning and fire and smoke and torture and anguish for you to live forever and suffer and burn and scream until the end of time.
But he loves you.

And he needs money." **

---

This post just made me have a flashback to Christian camp (jr. high/high school/eons past), where, at one of the nighttime gatherings where we were all in the bleachers, one of the youth ministers said, “God will punish you severely sometimes. He’ll beat you [metaphorically?]. But he does it because he loves you.”

Got it. I think.

[Triskadecamus]

Or, perhaps life will punish you, and God can help heal your wounds.

I won’t assume every dictionary pounding, evangelistic atheist represents the opinions of all the world’s skeptics. Could you please not just assume that every Christian eagerly seeks to nark on you for sinning, in order to make brownie points with some Divine Weasel? It’s actually supposed to be about love, I think.

Tris

" It is no use walking anywhere to preach unless our walking is our preaching." ~ Saint Francis Of Assisi ~

[TVAA]

Look at the bright side, everyone:

His4Ever is bringing people towards God by default, by driving them away from her warped and twisted theology!

Truly, God works in mysterious ways.

[Liberal]

A delightful insight, Vorlon!

[lynn73]

Originally posted by iampunha*
My question to you, therefore, is this: how can we go about showing you a more effective way of witnessing God’s love, and how could you be persuaded to adopt it? **

I’m not really sure how to answer that. While you do have good points as shown in the school analogy, I tend to think that perhaps both approaches are valid depending on the cirmumstances. Some won’t come by love, some need to be told the consequences. I have no problem desiring to witness to God’s love BUT (how do I put this delicately without starting another pile on?), I do have difficulties with people, especially those who say they’re Christians (and no, I’m not saying they’re not!) who deny or refuse to accept that certain things are clearly condemned by God in the word. Some try to analyze and find ways to explain it away rather than just call something what it is: wrong.

The problem I have is that I don’t want to compromise God’s truth in order to be politically correct or please people. Truth is truth whether it’s accepted or not (and please, I wish no debates on my truth/interpretation, your truth/interpetation). I don’t know if your e mail is available but there’s something I’d like to share with you that may tell you a little how I feel about some of the things going on. It would probably be too controversial for the board. I don’t want another thread like this one getting started.

[Monty]

Well, tell us something, then, H4E. Isn’t remarriage except for one particular circumstance, clearly “condemned by God?”

It will not go away. Nor will your “one size fits all” erroneous methodology apparently.

[lynn73]

*Originally posted by Monty *
**Well, tell us something, then, H4E. Isn’t remarriage except for one particular circumstance, clearly “condemned by God?”

It will not go away. Nor will your “one size fits all” erroneous methodology apparently. **

You can keep bringing that subject up all you want. My past is forgiven, I’m going forward. Another divorce wouldn’t make things better. It’s none of your business but my first husband did commit adultery. You just want to keep the focus on my past so you don’t have to examine your present. I’m done speaking of my personal life with you.

[Monty]

No. I’m focusing on your fire & brimstone condemnation of those you say don’t follow the literal words of the Bible and yet you don’t either.

[Joe_Cool]

So Monty, what do you have to say about the words of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young that I quoted on the previous page? You’re awfully vehement about defending your church, so I’d really like to see your defense to this.

Oh, and you need to learn a new trick. “You were married more than once! You committed adultery! You hypocrite!” only goes so far. Especially when you’re criticizing His4ever for her lack of love.

“(James 2:13 KJV) For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath showed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.”

One more time, Monty, take the plank out of your own eye, so you can see clearly to help His4ever with the speck in hers.

Anyway, I agree with David B on one thing after all: This thread was definitely posted in the wrong forum. It seems to belong in the Pit, not GD or MPSIMS. I thought a GD thread might focus on trying to refute what she posted, not attacking her past and her marriage, or bringing up old fights and personal prejudices.

But then I guess it wouldn’t be the same if Monty focused on facts instead of a grudge.

[Kimstu]

Well, His4ever, you have said on another forum:

*I’ve been married 3 times, to my regret. […] Many Christians are divided on the issue of marriage and divorce. *

What Monty is referring to is the very explicit scriptural condemnation of having another marital relationship if a former spouse is still living—except perhaps in the case of divorce on grounds of adultery.

I do have difficulties with people […] who deny or refuse to accept that certain things are clearly condemned by God in the word.

Well, it looks as though you are doing some of that waffling yourself with regard to the issues of divorce and remarriage. It seems to be okay with you to be “PC” and accept dissension and differences of interpretation concerning remarriage after divorce, but not on other issues that you’re less personally affected by.

[from previously-quoted Pit post] Does that mean that I should forever shut my mouth about what’s right and wrong?

Nobody’s making you shut your mouth, just as nobody’s making you discuss your personal life. But whenever your pronouncements about what you call “right and wrong” are hypocritical, somebody’s going to tell you so.

And given your past statements, you’re being hypocritical when you take it on yourself to condemn others for “compromising God’s truth” about “things that are clearly condemned”. You can’t convincingly scold other people for something that you’re doing too.

Joe_Cool: *Oh, and you need to learn a new trick. *

As long as H4e keeps hypocritically condemning others for living lives that are not in accordance with a literal interpretation of Scripture, while she herself is doing the same, you are going to have to expect other people to keep pointing that out.

If the end result is ultimately to discourage H4e from posting such condemnations, I’d consider that win-win for everybody.

[Monty]

I don’t see anything there to defend against, Joe. Your interpretation of their words is that it doesn’t jibe with the teachings of the other scriptures. Mine is that it does jibe with those teachings. And since I hold more than the Old & New Testaments to be Scripture, then you’ll just have to deal with that.

Kimstu covered the bit about H4E.

[Edlyn]

If I may, His4Ever, I’d like to make a few comments on this Christmas Eve.

*Originally posted by His4ever *
I’m not really sure how to answer that. While you do have good points as shown in the school analogy, I tend to think that perhaps both approaches are valid depending on the cirmumstances. Some won’t come by love, some need to be told the consequences.

What approach did our Lord use? It was Love, wasn’t it? In all the parables that come to mind, did He point out the consequences of error to threaten into submission, or did He demonstrate the vastness of God’s love, mercy and forgiveness? Are we not to be like Him?

I have no problem desiring to witness to God’s love BUT (how do I put this delicately without starting another pile on?), I do have difficulties with people, especially those who say they’re Christians (and no, I’m not saying they’re not!) who deny or refuse to accept that certain things are clearly condemned by God in the word. Some try to analyze and find ways to explain it away rather than just call something what it is: wrong.

This difficulty is your own to bear and please do not burden the shoulders of your brother or sister. When you can Love, like Him, you will no longer have that difficulty (anger) inside of you because of another’s sin. Sin is between that individual and God; not you, God, and that individual.

The problem I have is that I don’t want to compromise God’s truth in order to be politically correct or please people. Truth is truth whether it’s accepted or not (and please, I wish no debates on my truth/interpretation, your truth/interpetation).

I would never ask you to compromise Truth for any reason. I would ask you to first apply it to you own life like each of us must do. That alone should keep us busy enough in a lifetime.

Christmas Love… Christwas Love

[lynn73]

You are right in that Jesus used love to draw people and He did love people very much and showed it, but He did talk about hell also as seen here in verses from the gospels. Jesus loved people but He didn’t deny the consequence of hell. I don’t mean to be argumentative here and deny the drawing power of love. I just don’t think the other part should always be left out. "Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men…2 Cor. 5:11
I’m not denying His showing of love, but His love never compromised truth.

Mt 5:22 - Show Context
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Mt 5:29 - Show Context
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Mt 5:30 - Show Context
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Mt 10:28 - Show Context
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Mt 11:23 - Show Context
And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Mt 23:15 - Show Context
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Mt 23:33 - Show Context
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mr 9:45 - Show Context
And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Lu 10:15 - Show Context
And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.

Lu 12:5 - Show Context
But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Lu 16:23 - Show Context
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

The King James Version (Authorized)