MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL
And a Happy Newton’s Birthday to you!
Yes, and given that (you believe) he was the son of God, doesn’t that give him a good sense of who to talk about judgment and fires of hell with?
You, OTOH, are not Christ.
You have left out love, for the most part, dear:(
And now you’ve gone and quoted a dozen or so scriptural references to Jesus mentioning Hell. How many more, would you like to bet, are about love and forgiveness and being with God?
There are an abundance about love and forgiveness also. In my opinion, He didn’t talk about one without ever mentioning the other. Just trying to present a balanced view where I sometimes see people just thinking the one is true and never mentioning the other or even believing it. Course, I’m probably doing a lousy job of it, as usual. I’m not intending to ignore the love and forgiveness.
If even you admit you are doing such a lousy job of it His4ever, then perhaps you should not attempt it. I think that is the point that many have tried to get across to you. Please just step back and take a look at the work your doing.
How do you read this verse, then, and wherein do you see Jesus talking about damnation or hellfire?:
Mark 12: 28-34
Emphasis, of course, mine. I doubt very much the original writers had command of vB:D
I think what we’ve been saying is that while there is certainly a place for the approach you’ve been using, this is probably not it.
This is, IMHO, a difficult and important admission. The next step, which I think you’ll find is much easier than you might have initially thought, is to ask for help in making God’s love a more prominent part of your witness to Him:) I think you might be surprised at how willing your friends both here and elsewhere would be to show you how to do that.
You might even look within this thread for examples. And, of course, that one in MPSIMS;)
This is not fair. You can’t use what Jesus as your example to say “you’re wrong! That’s not what Jesus did!” and then, when she is CLEARLY following his example, say “well, you’re not Jesus, so you don’t get to do that.” And since you don’t appear to believe that he was the son of God, your argument is totally invalid anyway. After all, if he was just some guy, there’s no reason at all why His4ever can’t follow in his example, even the parts you find less than savory, if she so chooses.
You said:
And I’ll answer you with another passage:
Use a fair standard or else get off her back.
And Monty, allow me to rephrase. Instead of “defending” your faith, can you explain to me, one unfamiliar with its teaching and reasoning, how the idea of many gods ruling many worlds, the idea that God used to be a plain old human being who was promoted to godhood, and the idea that a good mormon man can one day become a god like ours, ruling his own world are not totally contradictory to the bible? I’ve done my part: I found and cited documentation from your own church’s founders that appear to teach a doctrine of polytheism. Now do your part and show me how I’m wrong.
The only thing I see in the bible that comes anywhere near matching up with that is in Genesis 3:5. Of course, the bible does confirm the idea of a “god of this world” in 2 Corinthians 4:3-4, so maybe there is some scriptural support for what Young and Smith said in some twisted sort of way. I doubt that’s what they meant, though.
If I’m wrong, please show me so.
Something about the word order in the first line or so in here renders the rest of the sentence rather difficult to understand (in that I don’t, much). Could you please elaborate?
Until then, let me take a stab at what I think you mean, and if I’m off feel free to disregard this.
You believe that it is a double-standard to simultaneously “toss aside” the judgment of sinners by Jesus while at the same time emphasizing his teachings on loving the population of the Earth. let me explain to you why I do not see this as a double standard:
Jesus did not tell us to judge. IIRC there is at least one passage in the Bible specifically telling people not to judge (which, if I remember correctly, is meant in the “condemn you to hell/see you as guilty” sense). That’s God’s job. However, Jesus tells Christians directly to love each other.
What I believe Jesus is or was has no relevance whatsoever to what His4ever believes he is and/or was. Otherwise I would have no more place to debate in this with His4ever than gobear or Mr Visible or Homebrew or David B or anyone else who doesn’t necessarily believe in the J/C God.
I believe this first bolded part is what many of us have been trying to get His4ever to do since she came here.
I don’t see what’s unfair about what I’ve said. His4ever, if you do, please let me know and I’ll do what I can to rectify things:)
The truth is Jesus never once mentioned Hell. All of the above references cited above from Matthew say “Gehennon” in the original Greek not “hell.” Gehennon (or the Valley of Hinnon) was a a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. It usually had fires burning in it and was generally considered to be a vile place to be. It was also said that the ancient Canaanites had practiced human sacrifice there. Talking about being “cast into Gehennon” was a figure of speech for having the worst possible thing happen to you. Being burned after death was especially undesirable for a culture which believed that a body which had been burned would not be able to resurrected at the end times.
The two references from Luke actually say “Hades” in Greek, so either Jesus was speaking metaphorically or he believed in the Greek underworld. Either way, Hades wasn’t hell. Remember everybody went to Hades, only bad people go to Hell.
In point of fact, the Christian concept of Hell did not yet exist in Jesus’ time. Ancient Jews didn’t believe in Heaven and Hell as such, but that there would be a great resurrection of the dead some day, and that they would basically have eternal life on Earth. (The Sadducees were a notable exception to this belief. They thought that when you died, you rotted. That was it)
It’s a pretty simple thing: judge yourself; love others.
Thank you Libertarian…we probably don’t agree on anything…but I am finding your sentiments in this disheartening thread helpful.
I apologize if this is off topic…
I’ve had a rough time with Christianity lately. I was ‘saved’ at a hellfire and brimstone type of teenage outreach program while I was in highschool. Even then I had troubles with certain aspects as I am extremely liberal at heart… I couldn’t condemn homosexuality, and all of my friends thought environmentalism was against Christianity. We were given the earth to do as we wish afterall…I read that same passage and saw us as stewards to care for the animals and plants FOR God…
I’ve had a few experiences that just haven’t been helpful. I don’t want to go to church because I’m afraid that people are going to be like the people I’ve had to deal with…judgemental and petty, and causing feelings of disappointment in God. 
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Church service, the pastor takes the time out of his exortations to condemn animal rights supporters to Hell. They are horrible people because they should be first helping humans…leaving no time to help animals. The thing is that I agree, humans are our first priority. But…why are these activists condemned in a church service for DOING something about a cause they believe in and the Ron-six-packs sitting on their asses night after night doing not a thing to help the world are a-ok? It frustrated me…made me realize how much Christians (myself included) hold onto our human stereotypes while shouting out OUR opinions as Christs word.
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I am going to hell. Not only that, I am a bad influence on my best friend.
So says her mother.
You see, her mother, a good, conservative type of Christian woman knows that I don’t go to her Lutheran church. She knows that her daughter and I, at the time, were spending evenings in bible study, weekend retreats, heart lifting prayers…but that is nothing compared to going to the ‘right’ church, in the ‘right’ kind of clothing.
- I am not a Christian. I only think I am. If I were a REAL Christian, I would know to condemn my fellow liberals to hell as she does…so says a ‘friend’ on another message board.
I am who they speak of…I have called upon the Lord but do not know him.
- Reading Joe_Cool and H4E and a few others. You are not helping. I know it doesn’t matter, heck a few of the usual cold, condescending words from Joe and I will endeavor to never look askew at you again…
I can’t be your kind of Christian, and I can’t understand why being condescending and ripping into others or giving no love, only judgement (to balance out the hipper love of course) CAN be Christian. That is not for me. I’ve had enough people trying to get me to think a certain way, to act a certain way. I have tried to follow God’s law…and the letter of it is pretty easy to follow…it’s always my heart that I worry about. How do you know you love God enough? How do you TRULY love your neighbor as yourself?
I read through this entire thread last night and then went to bed, feeling depressed. Sure, my bible is in it’s usual place in my nightstand but the heart afire with hope as I reached within myself searching for the spirit is long gone, leaving confusion and frustration.
Beautiful Lady of the Lake
Disregard those who condemn you. They are dead in spirit. Do not look for the living among the dead. Keep your eyes on Jesus. He is alive, and He does not condemn you.
God go with you always.
Forgive me Libertarian for the “me too” post.
Lady of the Lake, as I was reading your post I was wondering to myself what I could say to uplift you. I could not have said anything to surpass this.
God bless you.
Actually, I was feeling a bit of what Lady of the Lake was feeling, myself. I’ll save the GD until we get Polycarp back on line, but I sometimes wonder if I am a lesser breed of Christian because I haven’t had the classical “born again” experience, even though Christ is very much a part of my life. Like I said, I’d rather hold off on the discussion for a few weeks, but I promise I will start it. Fortunately, I was able to find an Episcopal priest on Monday and talk things out with him, too.
CJ
CJ, I’ll certainly participate in that debate too. This issue is close to my heart. I’ve already had my eyes opened on this board by posters like Tris but I’d like to learn more.
An Epis. priest years ago reminded me that the greatest saints were often known for experiencing what seemed like spiritual poverty and doubt in their own lives. It doesn’t matter. Keep your eye on the goal, and continue to love the people you meet (or act as if you do, which amounts to the same thing in the end). Looking forward to a fuller discussion.
Please do, as I know you’ve something like that somewhere else once and I wanted to ask you about it - but I’ll hold off until you actually open the discussion.
cjhoworth the classic “born again” experience is not classic at all. It’s a made up notion found in none of the historical churches of Christianity. You don’t have to feel saved to be saved. Nor do you have to say a sinner’s prayer, make an altar call or other nonsense you find in fundamentalist churches.
Perhaps, after studying it, they come to realize the condemnation you claim is there, really isn’t there in the sense that would apply to us today. In other words perhaps they understand the Bible better than you. That would hardly be surprising.
“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of God.” — Jesus (Matthew 5:3)
I was “born again” once cj - it’s not necessarily all it’s cracked up to be. I didn’t find God until I stopped believing in Him.