Wow! I hope you know that I’m being totally sincere when I say that my opinion of you has changed since I first encountered you in the Pit. This was a very nice thing for you to say, and I appreciate it.
I strongly feel that a child is their parent’s primary responsibility, superceding any other. Those of us not willing to accept that responsibility are often accused of being selfish. Perhaps we are, but at least we don’t inflict that selfishness upon an innocent life.
For WV_Woman and anyone else who is interested, this is why Jinn and I can’t get a doctor to sterilize us: we haven’t had enough children to justify it at our ages. Doctors have a formula, age times number of kids, and if you’re under a certain number (I think it’s 60, but don’t remember for sure) they won’t give you the snip. They will make exceptions for horrific medical conditions that call for hysterectomy, but that’ s about it. And no, this is not a load of hogwash. Dr.J explained this to me in great detail during his OB/GYN rotation a couple of years ago.
What CCL is referring to is the “Rule of 120”, which is not really used by OB/GYNs anymore. They used to say that if your age times your number of living children was less than 120, they didn’t tie your tubes. This is obviously ridiculous now; a 40-year-old would have to have 3 kids before they’d consider sterilization.
I know that doctors can seem like jerks when they refuse to tie the tubes of young childless women, but I agree with them in most cases. The problem is that some huge percentage of women who get their tubes tied end up wanting it reversed a few years later, either because they changed their minds about kids as they got older or they got divorced and wanted to have kids with a new husband. Somehow this becomes the doctor’s fault.
I really thing CCL and I are in it for the long haul, and I don’t think our mutual desire to have kids is going to be increasing any as we age, but I can understand why someone wouldn’t want to do a tubal on her.
Dr. J
Just echoing what the above have said about female snipping. All the doctors I’ve talked to won’t touch you before you’re 30 if you don’t have kids, and even then it’s iffy if they Big Brother Managed Care will allow it to happen. So you need to find a sympathetic doctor and have several thousand dollars laying around just in case.
Case in point: A woman I worked with married and had a daughter when she was very young, then several years later found out that she had early signs of the same reproductive cancer that had killed her mom and one of her aunts. She was 29 and even though she had a child already, she played hell with the insurance company before they “allowed” her to have a hysterectomy. Ack. When I went in for surgery for what my docs referred to as “the worse case of ovarian cysts he’d ever seen” I begged them to just yank the suckers out, since odds were good I’d be back later for the same surgery. No dice.
We had Mr. Kitty neutered shortly after we married; best $48 I ever spent. 
Oh, and DoctorJ… it’s not always the doctor’s fault. Mr. Kitty got stuck with a $9000 payment to his ex in the divorce to cover half the cost of her tubal reversal. Despite the fact that she’d had two really horrible pregnancies/deliveries, despite the fact that her doctor flat-out told her he’d never deliver another one of her children, and despite the fact that she was fully conscious and unmedicated when they asked her (since they would be in there anyway) if she wanted a tubal. ::grumble:: He got out of it in a re-negotiation of the decree, thank god.
-BK
I can’t believe it!
I mean, I believe ya’ll, but that’s insane!
I can see having a certain age limit … I mean, we can all agree that say, an 18 year old making a major life decision doesn’t know what they’re doing sometimes.
But if you’re 28, never had a kid, don’t want 'em, sheesh! You should have the choice to make sure you never get pregnant!
Grrr!
Here in WV you can have one if you are 25 … regardless of whether or not you have kids. If you are under 25 and have 2 kids already, they’ll do it then. Otherwise no. (I am pretty sure this is how it works but I could be mistaken.)
This, to me, is mind boggling. You can go get a doctor to give you an abortion, regardless of age, number of children, your husband or parent’s consent, but you can’t get your freakin tubes tied?! What’s up with that?!
Not to get on my soapbox, but I think the phrase “patriarchal society” pretty much covers most doctors’ opinions about sterilizing women under 40 without kids. I think it is getting better (I was just talking to my doctor about getting a tubal done - I’m 35 and she didn’t bat an eye), but we have a long way to go still.
I think it really depends on the doctor. I know of quite a few childfree women in their mid-20s (one as young as 22) who have indeed successfully found a doc to sterilize them. It may not be easy to get sterilized at a young age, but it CAN be done. Some people had luck getting sterilized at a young age by simply going to Planned Parenthood.
I feel that sterilization should be readily available to anyone over 18. Some people might later decide they want children, but obviously they could opt for foster parenting or adoption–which would be a totally win-win situation, in my view, since we need more loving parents to enter the foster care system. Plenty of people who want children find out that they can’t have a biological child for one reason or another, and they find ways to cope. It’s not like the world is having a people shortage.
Personally, I would prefer to regret never conceiving a child than to regret aborting one or giving birth (although since I do want children, and I am very pro-life regardless, it’s a purely hypothetical issue for me). In particular, I see no good reason for not sterilizing young men. After all, it’s not that hard to store sperm at a sperm bank for the possibility that the guy might decide he wants children someday.
Not always. I used to want kids someday(when I was younger), but later realized that I wanted them for the wrong reasons. Basically, it was more of wanting to pass on the family name then anything else. Now I realize that it’s not important anyway and that I had no other reason even then.
Kinda. I like some kids, but not for long periods of time. I certainly don’t want to have to care for one 24/7/etc/etc.
Short list of reasons:
-First of all, I’m not a big people person. I can handle other people for certain periods of time, but even with people I love, I eventually get to a point where I just want to be a recluse for a while. This the limit of my ability to be around other people is usally measured in hours. This is the kind of thing that really makes me not want to have kids, as it’s not like I could just go off on my own (responsibly) and leave them.
-I’ll just say it, I’m selfish. I’m not selfish insofar that I’d leave screw someone else for my own benefit, but at the same time, I LIKE being able to spend money on myself and spend my time on projects that benefit myself. I’m not particulary enthralled with the idea of having to raise a kid for 18 years and buy them every little toy they want, etc. I like being fanacially secure and kids do drain money.
And at least, I can admit it, and will not take steps that would harm someone else with it.
-My lifestyle is not conductive to raising childern, and I don’t see the benefits of trading it in hopes that raising childern is something I’d enjoy.
-I can easier care for a pet and get attention and devotion from one just as easily. I’d go more into this, but that would have to be saved for a “Why pets are better then childern” thread.
-I’m sure I wouldn’t be a good father, for reasons stated above.
If we want to get into less selfish reasons,
-The world is overpopulated. Not bringing more kids into the world is not a bad thing (Not that I have anything againest those who do have kids, except for maybe those people who keep pumping 'em out despite the fact they can’t support the ones they have).
-I don’t have a lot of faith in humanity, so I don’t want to be responsible to bringing a kid into a world I don’t like living in.
It’s possible. I’ve still got a bit of time before it becomes an issue, so I haven’t been snipped or anything (even if I could afford it), just in case I change my mind.
However, In order for me to regret anything, it would have to a.) be something I consider to be important and b.) be an oppurtunity that will never come again. I find it hard to regret something that I still have plenty of chances to do.
So in order for me to regret not having kids (assuming I wanted them), I would have be too old to have kids(or married to someone too old) and/or have a vasectomy, as well as not be able to adopt. Only if I truely had no way to have kids and wanted them could I regret it.
Advantage: Spend time/money the way I want to. Fewer responsibilties to cause stress. Don’t have the chance of screwing up my childern. Don’t have to put my plans on hold for 18 years. Don’t have to worry about where the kids are all the time or worry that the kid has found another way to accidently kill himself/herself. Don’t have to look for a sitter when me and the wife want to go out. Don’t have to go to kiddy movies unless I want to go. Don’t have to get up at 3 am to change to kid. Don’t have to worry about the kid getting/getting someone else pregnet.
Disadvantage: Don’t get to shape someone’s outlook until they turn 15 and decide I know nothing.
Not as such, but I’m young enough I don’t get asked about such things. I do have a friend who wants to have a kid, but never has due to her divorce who keeps telling me “You’ll change your mind”. It doesn’t happen enough to annoy me though, but I still disagree.
Someone else once told me that I had to have kids because “you don’t want to die alone”. Though that probably has little to do with if you actually have kids or not.
Right now I’m 1. only 22, and 2. can’t afford it/don’t have anyone to look after me post-surgery.
I’m hoping to be able to get it done soon after I leave Houston again. (Not sure when that will be.)
And the MDs are very, very reluctant to give the operation to anyone who hasn’t popped out a couple of sprog already, even if you sign wavers until you’re blue in the face.
This pretty much sums up my opinion on the “would I ever regret it” thing. Should I find myself in such an excess of money and time that I decided to take on caring for a young life, I’d much rather adopt an older (read: past toddler) stage child with some sort of artistic interest I could help foster, than to have one of my own. To be honest, I’ve always rather thought of myself as the type to do things for children, or to help them (especially disadvantaged ones)… I just don’t want any of my own.
I guess I will be a crazy old auntie to a lot of other people’s kids one day, and still enjoy my quiet time at home.
Have you always known you don’t want kids?
Mielikki: No; when I was growing up I thought it was just something everyone did. When I became an adult I always thought I’d have them someday, I just wasn’t ready yet. Then, when my peers had them and I saw what it was like, I knew it was Not For Me.
Mr.Mielikki: Yes. Since I was very young.
Do you like kids?
Mielikki: Very occasionally, if they’re quiet. I’ve had some curious, intelligent kids as friends but they tend to be exceptions from what I’ve seen of the general kid population.
Mr.Mielikki: I can’t stand them.
Why don’t you want children?
Mielikki: I guess I have to turn around and say why would I want them? I like my life the way it is, and what I don’t like wouldn’t be helped by becoming a parent. And overpopulation is a big concern of mine; it seems like almost all our environmental problems are caused by too many people, especially Americans. I can’t think of any reason to add to the problem.
Mr.Mielikki: Besides never wanting them on an emotional level, I don’t want the responsiblity or the financial drain. Environmental reasons also play a factor
Are you afraid you will regret this decision when you get older?
Mielikki: No; the older I get, actually, the more pleased I am that I made that decision. As far as my golden years, well, all the money I didn’t spend on a child will go to buying myself friends to keep me company, assuming my husband’s not around.
Mr.Mielikki: Not at all. I have never reconsidered my choice in the 20+ years that have passed so far.
What do you see as the main advantage / disadvantage of not having children?
Mielikki: Advantage- time and energy I would be spending on parenting I can spend on things/people that I already love- my husband, pets, home, spirituality, and teaching. I can get away with working part-time because I don’t need the extra money. Our household also uses less resources. Disadvantage- lost friendships wit some parent peers. The debate’s still out on whether I was the one that couldn’t adjust to their change of status, or whether they pushed non-parents out of their lives. Since I have friendships with other parents, I tend to think it’s more them than me.
Mr.Mielikki: The biggest advantage is the available time and financial freedom. The selfish gene is still active though. It would be interesting to see what my DNA would produce.
**Do you feel that your culture is prejudiced against people (esp. married people) who don’t have or want children? **
Mielikki: Culture? Like, US honky peasantry? I don’t know, I’d say it’s more a societal deal. I pay more in taxes and insurance for less services. Adult spaces are becoming more and more rare as everyone is supposed to accomodate parents who want to take their kids to the most inappropriate venues. Politicians constantly harp on ‘doing it for the children’ which is irritating, though I suspect their promises have little to do with any actual concern for kids.
Mr.Mielikki: Very much so, especially in the South where I live. Parents get out of work with a convient excuse. Being covered on my wife’s health insurance costs more than a person with 3 kids even though I will draw on the system much less. While market forces drive the demand for family friendly entertainment and restraunts, most attempts at adult-only times/locations are usually decried as unfair.
Have you always known you don’t want kids?
Granted, I’m only 19, but I’ve never, ever liked kids, never liked anything to do with kids and I doubt I’ll change my mind anytime in the future [but who knows?]. When I was younger I never wanted a child, no. Growing up I always said that I would never have children. Family members always said “You’ll change your mind when you get older!”. I doubt it.
Do you like kids?
Can’t say I HATE them, but in my opinion they’re on the same level as tiny yappy dogs that get on my nerves, if you ask me.
I don’t see what the big deal is, really.
Why don’t you want children?
I don’t want to have to look after anyone else other than myself. Selfish? Absolutely! Plus I dislike children. A lot.
Are you afraid you will regret this decision when you get older?
Maybe, but I have plenty of time to change my mind if the need arises.
What do you see as the main advantage / disadvantage of not having children?
Advantage - No children to worry about for the rest of my life, no teenagers to look after, a life to spend on living it the way I want it.
Disadvantage - Nagging family members who might think it’s my “duty” as a woman to bear children.
Do you feel that your culture is prejudiced against people (asp. married people) who don’t have or want children?
Absolutely, especially women. Why does society presume that just because we’re women, we have to have children or even feel maternal urges? Does that make us less womanly because of it? Does that make us selfish? No and no.
Anyone else here play “The Sims?” In the game, all you have to do is keep the little computer people happy by maintaining levels of hunger, comfort, fun, society, etc in the ‘green’ zone. Occasionally, you will be offered the choice of having a baby.
I’ve taken it a few times, but have never successfully kept a child. Every adult in the game quickly bottoms out into the red zone as he or she feeds and sings to the baby but has little time left for sleep, food, or talking to others. Fall so deeply asleep that you can’t wake up in time to feed the baby, and Child Protective Services comes to scold you and take it away. This has happened to me several times.
One time, the ‘father’ of the baby hit the very bottom of his red zone. His carpool arrived, and instead of getting in the car, he stood on the doorstep and screamed and screamed and screamed. And then he died. If not for the baby, I would never have known that Sims could commit suicide.
That, more or less, is why I don’t want kids.
LOL. This ISN’T limited to women. At the age of 35 I tried to get a vasectomy and was told that, since I had no children they would not perform one. It has nothing to do with patriarchal societies. As my doctor (and the subsequent others that I went to) explained the problem to me, too many irresponsible people had themselves “fixed” and then later sued the Doctor.
originally posted by FisherQueen
HAHAHAHA!!! You just made my day.
Have you always known you don’t want kids?
No, I can’t really say I’ve always known that I didn’t want them. I’ve thought about it a few times in my life, and the circumstances just never seemed right for me to have a kid and do what was necessary to raise it right. After a while I came to the conclusion that I really didn’t need to worry about it.
Do you like kids?
Some of them. And I’ve been told I’m very good with them. But I also tend to lose my temper with children because they can’t be reasoned with, in many ways, they can’t communicate their needs effectively…and that’s really frustrating for me.
Why don’t you want children?
Because I don’t have 1) The patience for them, 2) The financial resources for them, or 3) The personal resources for them. I realize that this is most likely a selfish impulse on my part…but as far as I’m concerned, there is no need for me to have children…not with the world population heading to astronomical proportions already.
Are you afraid you will regret this decision when you get older?
Maybe. I don’t really know. I know I don’t regret it right now. The closest opportunity to have children that I’ve ever had was with a previous girlfriend…she was already pregnant when I got together with her…she was planning on giving the child up for adoption, and ended up doing so. But I was there with her for the delivery, and I think we both seriously considered keeping him at the ultimate moment of decision. So I know it’s not a matter of not having a paternal instinct. That was one of the most difficult decisions I’ve ever had to make.
What do you see as the main advantage / disadvantage of not having children?
The main advantage is, of course, being able to keep the necessary resources for children focused on myself, and my life. Time, money, etc. As far as disadvantages go, there aren’t any, really. I sometimes think it would be nice to have children…but only in the same vague sort of ‘someday’ kind of way as it would be nice to have a beach house, or something else just as unlikely, or fantastic. It’s not a serious consideration.
Do you feel that your culture is prejudiced against people (asp. married people) who don’t have or want children?
The overall social culture? No. But on a more personal level, yes, there is certainly a pressure to have children, even if it’s only from parents, grandparents, etc…the typical “So, when are you going to have children” or “It’s different when they’re yours” kind of comments. My usual response to that is “Yes, it’s different when they’re yours. You can’t give them back to their parents when you’re tired of playing with them.” 
Have you always known you didn’t want kids?
No. I used to desperately want children, like 5 (!!!) of them. I realized several years ago that my reasons for wanting children were fairly screwed up, and it would be so unfair to a child to put all my issues and baggage on them, (let alone 5 of them).
Do you like kids?
Mostly. If I like a child’s parents, I usually like their kids.
Why don’t you want children?
My parents are divorced, and I do not get along with either step-parent. My family dynamic is seriously screwed up, and my husband’s is even more screwed up than mine. I don’t want to put kids through the stuff my husband and I went through. I wouldn’t be able to keep them protected.
Are you afraid you will regret this decision when you get older?
Sometimes. I have 2 half-sisters that I am close to. They are undecided about having kids, but I think they will end up having a few. I worry that once they have children, I’ll be shut out of their lives, and then it will just be me and the husband. Holidays are sometimes difficult, because they are basically a celebration of the kids in the family, and if you don’t have kids, you are basically a 5th wheel. But, I’m not going to have a baby just to “fit in”.
Main advantages of not having kids:
Since I don’t have to save for anyone else’s college education, I will be able to retire early.
I have a lot more money to donate to charity. (No dance lessons or soccer camps to pay for). Charity work is very important to me.
I have a lot of time for my hobbies and artwork, traveling, and sleep!
I have been able to rescue several cats and give them a good home, when they would otherwise have been put down.
Disadvantages:
Holidays are a little isolating.
My family refuses to accept I am not having kids. I get hassled by them a lot.
I sometimes wonder what I am missing.
Almost all of my friends have kids or are pregnant. They are gravitating towards only having friendships with parents, because they have more in common. It’s getting harder to maintain friendships.
Do you feel that your culture is prejudiced against people who don’t have or want children?
I don’t know that I would call it prejudice. There is some negativity, though. People assuming there is something wrong with me mentally, or saying my cats are my substitute children (wrong!). It gets really old to hear people tell me again and again that I’d make such a good mom, or I will change my mind, or gosh, why don’t I want kids, they are so great, blah blah blah.
I’m tired of the perception that I live this care free, frivolous life, and that my problems are petty whining, because I don’t have a child. Example: I worked full time and went to university full time for about a year and a half. I was always tired and worn out, and got pretty sick from not sleeping much. I told this to a friend with kids, and how I would be so glad when I graduated, because I just couldn’t take it anymore. She got pretty snotty about it and said I didn’t know tired because I hadn’t walked the floor every night with a colicky baby. Ok, fine, your pain is greater than mine; you win. Gah!
I don’t care about the supposed tax or health insurance inequities. I know a lot of child-free people get upset about it. It seems kind of silly to me, because childless people generally have more disposable income than people with kids; complaining you are being bled dry by school taxes seems pretty preposterous in light of that.