Errr, Blizzard’s policy is emphatically * not * endemic homophobia. The * worst * it could be characterized as is “We’d really rather not deal with this in our make-believe world.” It isn’t that they don’t like you, fear you, or want to take your lunch money. They just wish you’d shut up and go kill some Jade Oozes off in the hinterlands.
Blizzard has already created a world where another persecuted minority, nerdy geeks, can be perceived as gods because they kick ass in PVP. They feel they’ve done their part.
I’m totally with you on that. It’s a lot easier to form groups with people you know. I was speaking to a guild in game, with a written charter that SHOULD be written for and from the perspective of the characters. There can be a lot of blurry lines between RL and IG, I’m totally aware of that. However, when we’re talking about GM sanctioned guilds, it should follow IC guidelines. It may sound like I’m arguing both sides, but that comes from my answering the issues from both a player and a GM perspective, all of which are colored by my own past and experience.
Sometimes trying to “hide” a stereotyped-against group can be just as damaging. Blizzard isn’t persecuting, per se, but more trying to stifle any mention of homosexuals in the name of protecting them. I agree that yes, a GLBT-friendly group probably would spark off homophobic comments - but they will be there, and having people around of a group you have stereotyped views about does help you realise “Hey, actually, they’re just like us”. Blizzard are stopping any positive mentions or examples of homosexuality, which leaves us with teenage boys yelling fag at each other when they get ganked.
Actually, that’s the best characterization of Blizzard’s policy, but not one I substantially disagree with. But that’s beside the point. What was trying to say is that homosexuality is a controversial subject precisely because we live in such a homophobic society. The message it sends is, “We don’t personally hate you (probably), but lots and lots of other people do, so we’re just going to try to avoid the subject altogether.” Not taking a position at all is part and parcel of the overwhelming homophobia in the US, because if we weren’t homophobic, it wouldn’t be necessary to avoid taking a position. (In fairness, if our society were more homophobic, it wouldn’t be necessary to have a position either, as no one would admit to being gay. But that’s neither here nor there.)
Checks the forum. Yep, it’s the Pit. Looks over the OP again. Yep. It’s a rant. I guess I’m missing where you got the idea this was a rational debate rather than venting frustration.
Bah, in all the excitement I totally forgot. I agree completely with the OP and would leave a game in a heartbeat that said what Blizzard did. At least now I can scratch ‘Play WoW’ of my list of things to do.
To start a guild in Warcraft, you buy a charter, get a certain number of signatures from distinct player accounts on it, and turn it in. The only required human interaction is on the player level.
I’ve seen recruiting for various IC guilds, many of them jokes. I’ve seen purpose-based guild recruiting (high level raid guilds, Warsong Gulch 20-bracket guilds). I’ve seen small social guilds (such as my own), though those don’t tend to recruit since they grow by personal contact. I’ve seen weird criteria recruiting (such as the all-female-player guild, which as far as I know is still a going thing unless it got laughed off the server for sheer unverifiability by the players). A friend of mine played on an RP server and had a guild that was structured as an actual military organisation, with meaningful ranks in-guild. I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the big guilds on the server I play had something similar going on, but since I’m not playing in a big raid guild or being interested in playing in a big raid guild, I wouldn’t know.
As I said in my first post, I’ve never played WoW. I was going from the notes in the OP that said they were not allowed to start a guild, and were told that by Blizzard. I took that to mean that guilds had to be approved, which in every other RPG I’ve ever seen means approval by the GMs. If that is not the case here, so be it.
I never said that being in business to make money made one immune from criticism. What I said was that I wasn’t surprised by the decision made by Blizzard. I think they, like any other company, is as mercenary as I say they are. I do agree that the best method of complaint to any company is via the wallet. In fact I agree with you, and think this decision is a little stupid and wrong, it just doesn’t surprise me is all, and I can see their side of it. It probably was the correct business decision.
I notice you didn’t address the rest of my post, not that you have to, but I was curious if there was more to this arguement then meets the eye.
I have never played WOW and probably never will but I do have a question. Are there Democrat/Republican/Libertarian guilds? How about Hetero only/friendly guilds? Are there White or Black or (insert ethnic group here) only/friendly guilds?
Not so far as I know. I’m not aware of any rule specifically forbidding them.
I don’t know of any. I would assume that a guild that allowed only heterosexuals or only blacks (or specifically excluded such groups) would be against the terms of service. I’ve not seen a whole lot of racism in the game, and the few times I have seen it (usually directed at Asians), everyone who overheard it piled on hte guy pretty instantly, so I don’t think there’d be a need for a guild to specifically advertise itself as “black-friendly.”
Okay, I misunderstood what you were trying to say. I thought you were defending the policy. My apologies. I do think that it was a dumb business decision, as they’re more likely to lose players for following the policy than for dropping it. The homophobes are likely to bitch and complain, but I doubt they’d stop playing, as the issue is not as personally insulting as it is for gay players. Giving up something you like to make a principled, ethical stand is a sign of maturity, and most homophobes don’t have that. (FTR, neither do I. As much as I intend to bitch and complain, there’s no way I’m cancelling my subscription.)
He’s not one of my favorite posters, but I don’t have any particular animus against him. His first comment in this thread made him come across as a first class cock, is all, and cthiax replied in the exact same tone, as far as I’m concerned.
Learn2Live nub: Being gay, being a minority, being the object of the PC patrol does NOT mean your lifestyle has now become inoffensive to everyone. period. end of story. Deal with it, or not, either way it matters NOT because Blizzard’s servers are private property and they can do damn well whatever they want on their servers. Don’t like it? Spend a gagillion dollars, create your own game and run it how you see fit. Or just quit, nub.
It is a game full of children. As a parent I want to control how, when, why and where my children are exposed to adult issues like this one. I don’t care WHAT the message is, you try to tell it to my kids and you will get a fight. Blizzard wants to aviod this problem by removing such messages, in any form, from general chat, as best they can.
The guild/member Blizzard WARNED was not banned/expelled from the game. They were warned.
Blizzard does warn/ban ppl for being offensive in game. You and no one on this board has ANY information on when/where/why/how often this is done to anyone for any reason. Except of course this example. To say Blizzard does not ban ppl for offensive language is not possible without that data.
Blizzard has not excluded or denied the right of ppl to form guilds with a r/l message/agenda. They do insist that the message/agenda NOT take place in general chat so that sensitive ppl to that issue/message/agenda are not exposed and therefore not offended.
Blizzard has a designated place to deliver that message/agenda/issue for a guild. It is in the World of Warcraft Guild Forum. So, they have NOT stifled free speech, they have provided a place where ppl can do this without fear of being reprimanded for offending the easily offended. Incidentally, they didn’t need to do this. It is private property and they can ban whomever they like for any reason and any time.
Finally, STFU and reroll a life. Yours is obviously not going anywhere if you are so concerned that your particular issue/agenda/message is not being supported by a fucking video game.
If Blizzard want to see ‘real life sexual matters’ taken out of the game, how about they a) Tone down the animation for female (and male to a degree) night elf stripper-dancing and b) actually cut down on the massive numbers of people standing in the SW and IF main thoroughfares, spamming the trade channel with offers of stripteases for tips.
Blizz wouldn’t have to even put a macro in place. They could just get a staff member to log in every so often and they’d see it. I play on Firetree, a medium/low pop PvP server, yet I still see this sort of behaviour on a regular, if not daily basis. You put in a complaint, and Blizzard responds that they can’t take action until a suitable number of complaints have been received. And especially on your smaller servers, this is never going to happen, because players are sick of being told that nothing will be done until some nebulous quota of complaints has been reached.
I’m all for inclusive style guild addons - “GBLT Friendly”, “All Ages”, “Republicans Welcome” etc, etc. Just because a guild advertises as gay friendly, it doesn’t mean your kids are going to catch the homosex. It simply means that in guild chat, or on the guild pages if there are any, the players don’t need to hedge their language for fear of their guild mates finding out they like people of the same sex as themselves.
Is nub another word for newbie? Anyway, sure, I agree to what you’re saying here.
Negative. The words “fag”, “faggot” etc are not covered by the automatic censor as racical epithets and general expletives are. Your children are being exposed to this adult issue already, and, thanks to Blizzard, only in a negative way.
What’s your point with this? It’s still their policy to not allow a GLBT friendly guild.
I agree with this. However, either way, this has no effect on Blizzard’s policy of no GLBT guilds.
General chat, and in guild names. The people who are sensitive to that issue are homophobes - and I see no need to avoid offending homophobes. Indeed, telling people to not mention their sexual preferences in any way in case a homophobe gets upset seems extremely unethical.
In addition, it is only the pro-GLBT side that people are being unexposed to. The use of homophobic language, uncensored by the automatic doodah, is widespread. Players are exposed to it all the time - and they are exposed to only negative viewpoints.
They have indeed provided a place - a hiding place, for people of alternative sexual preferences to hide, away from others so that they don’t disturb them.
Of course they didn’t need to do this. They didn’t need to make a game. They didn’t need to have a policy disallowing GLBT friendly guilds, whilst implicitly allowing (via the selection of censored words) homophobic terms to be used.
You seem so concerned about it that you made a list of seven points. Perchance you should “reroll” a life, if you are so concerned that people are (justifiably, in my opinion) pissed off at Blizzard’s decision.
You are of course wearing your blinders today I see.
GLBT is not specifically banned as a guild name. Names that refer to ANY real world thing/place/copyrighted material etc. are banned. Get the facts straight next time, it will help that hurt your face feels from the harsh impact you just experienced.
The chat profanity filter is a line of defense, dumbass. You can totally turn off chat as well. Either way, swearing is prohibitted, report the offender and Blizzard WILL respond with a warning, warning, limitted ban then a perm ban.
The isolation of real world issues and messages to the Guild forum is not just for GLBT messages. It is for ALL r/l messages. Christian/KKK/Nazis/Quilter Anonymous you name it that is where it goes. And that is where the GLBT message goes as well. You are bearing false witness to the facts if you disagree with this point. Don’t like it? quit.
If you hadn’t noticed, this is not the game. This is the straightdope. I come here to learn, debate and have fun. I am not complaining about the game. I am criticizing the OP. If that means I need a life, then so do you, the person reading it and all straightdopers. Cecil, I think, would not agree since he does post here as well. He is GOD. Therefore, you are wrong. My life is fine. Thanks for trying.
If you’ve got a problem with homosexuality, that’s your problem, not mine. I suggest counseling, because that sort of attitude has no place in a civilized society.
By the time you’re old enough to have kids, you should have learned that you don’t always get what you want. You do not have any control over when your kids are going to get exposed to homosexuality. Homosexuals are all around you, and short of locking your kid in the basement, there’s absolutely nothing you can do to prevent him from encounter The Dreaded Gays. And even if you do that, it’s no guarantee, because your kid might be gay right now. And there’s absolutely nothing you can do about it.
Yep. And it’s a bullshit warning, in service to a bullshit policy. What’s your point?
That’s true. What’s also true is that Blizzard has, for whatever reason, declined to add anti-gay slurs to its language filter, and that anti-gay language is rife throughout the entire game. Racist language, on the other hand, is not. This would seem to indicate that one sort of language gets policed more stringently than the other.
And the point is that people who are “sensitive” to the idea that gay people should be treated the same as straight people do not deserve to have their sensitivities catered to. Nor do people who are “sensitive” to the idea that blacks should be treated the same as whites, or women the same as men, or Jews the same as Christians. And, indeed, nowhere in WoW are the sensitivities of any other sort of bigot catered to. Except for homophobes.
No one has accused them of stifling free speech, as it is functionally impossible for Blizzard to do so. Only the government can stifle free speech, and only the government is legally enjoined from doing so. Blizzard has an absolute right to forbid or promote almost any kind of speech they want on their own servers. However, this does not make them immune to criticism for what kind of speech they forbid and/or promote.
This coming from someone who uses “nub” as an insult.
The term “GLBT” may not be used to advertise their guild. This includes their guild name - unless you’d like to claim that having an omnipresent name above their character’s heads would not be advertising, nor would “incite certain responses”?
Are you sure about that? I’m in a guild with “spoon” in the title, as well as a friend’s real name - it hasn’t been banned yet for incorporating those two real world things. Places, equally so - a guild name like “London Raiders”, for example, wouldn’t get banned either. You are correct in that copyrighted material would most likely be banned, yes, as would insulting language. Which of these categories would “GLBT” come under?
Insult, ignored.
The point, mon ami, is that there are two seperate forms of defence. For example, if I were to call another player an “ganking fucker”, that would be censored. If I were to call that player a “ganking nigger”, that would also be censored. If I were to call that same player a “ganking fag” , it would not be. By this policy, Blizzard is implicitly saying homophobic insults are not as bad as racial or general expletives - probably, as others in this thread have said, in order to play to their audience, but that does not make it any less immoral.
Actually, i’ve seen people talking about religious issues in WoW, not just the forums. I’d imagine Quilter Anonymous would be allowed, too - random stuff like that is talked about pretty regularily (although perhaps quilting itself is not :p). If people were to support the KKK or Nazis in either the forum or indeed the game itself, then they’d get banned.
With which? The quilting and religion, or the KKK and Nazis?
Opinion.
Or alternatively I could show how you’re wrong, I guess.
Me too.
If you’d like to re-read what I said, I pointed out that you were annoyed at us critisicising Blizzard, not that you were annoyed at the game. Please try to read more carefully in the future.
Quite possibly. Seems we’re all in the same boat, here - let’s try and make it a better boat by trying to curb homophobia, eh?