Ilyn Payne? We’ve seen nothing to indicate that Ilyn Payne is in any way a fearsome fighter. He’s a very old guy who chops people’s heads off.
Based on both what we’ve seen on screen and what we’ve heard of their reputations, I think the following people are the most likely to win a more-or-less-formal duel to the death:
-The Mountain
-The Hound
-Jaime Lannister (with two hands)
-Syrio Forell
-Loras Tyrell
-Brienne
For historical perspective, we should add in Khal Drogo (never had to cut his hair), and the young-and-in-his-prime Robert Baratheon who we never actually saw on screen, but heard about. Plus Ser Barristan, who is still alive and still a badass but probably no longer world-class simply due to age.
And maybe Daario (who defeated the Mereenese champion and also presumably all the other captains of that mercenary company)
Man, now I want to start a whole new thread about this. How good a fighter is Gray Wurm? Ser Jorah? That skull-drinking guy from Craster’s keep? Bronn? Oberyn?
And *looks *like he could eyeball you to death from the next room over :).
Grey Worm is probably very good - he’s been trained in combat “since before he could walk” (mud 'rassling in the crib ? :)) and has basically spent every waking hour since drilling. However, considering the getup and behaviour of the Unsullied, I would wager he’s actually not super good 1-on-1 : much like the Greek phalangites or the Roman legionnaires, the strength of the Unsullied seems to be that they’re perfect formation fighters. Formation fighting not only leaves little room for personnal heroics, but actively discourages them since even a single hole in the line weakens the whole line.
That being said he was pretty ninja during the Yunkai raid, so what do I know ?
Jorah is decent, but not stellar : he had trouble with a lone, nameless Dothraki back in season 1 and only won the duel because the Dothraki didn’t know how to deal with his armour. But he was otherwise outmatched pretty severely. He’s also the only one of the Yunkai Three who came back with blood and cuts all over.
Bronn I think relies too much on his speed, and on surprising opponents expecting a “fair” fight with his use of “underhanded” combat pragmatist tactics (kicking & punching, the evil-looking knife he keeps stashed around his back, staying away and waiting for the opponent to tucker out…). Which is evidently enough to give him the edge when the opponent doesn’t expect it ; but would he have the upper hand against somebody who’d read the same playbook ? Or if he were backed in a corner, without the room to dodge around ? Or was facing a determinator who could just tank his shots and power through ?
Damn, now I kind of regret that Hound and Bronn didn’t have time for a few passes before Blackwater :).
Oberyn… no idea. He’s fast, good enough against mooks, obviously is a man who routinely looks for a fight or twenty and he’s managed to stay alive this long. So he should be up there, but whether he rates a feature article in Swordsman Weekly ? Open question.
[QUOTE=BlackKnight]
Do you believe that is what happened on the show?
[/QUOTE]
You can’t simultaneously claim that it’s racist, and that you aren’t bothered by it. Pick a stance. Either you think it’s racist, in which case it’s OK to admit being bothered by it. Or say you aren’t bothered by it, which means you think it’s not racist.
There’s really no winning this contest for the producers of the show.
If they only had white people then you’d get complaints that there’s not enough diversity. Having Daenrys be white and her freed slaves be black is viewed as racist (or colonialist, or whatever) by people. But if they switched it up and had her be black and the freed slaves be white people would probably complain about that too.
There’s no winning when people are so worked up about race that they view everything through that prism where they take offense. The best thing the producers can do is just ignore the haters and write the best episodes they can.
As to who’s the toughest fighter. I’d say it isn’t clear, but more importantly it really depends on the situation.
Jaime was one of the best fighters in the kingdom, yet he lost to Brienne on the bridge because he had been locked up for months and was out of practice and weak. In his prime with a good breakfast and his armor I have no doubt he would have beaten her easily.
As others have mentioned, Bronn is an efficient killer but gets it done by being ruthless and exploiting any advantage.
Dhrogo was very tough, but died from infection from a small wound.
I think that if any of these top tier guys go up against each other in this fictional universe the outcome depends on chance more than anything. Who has the first blow? Who is better rested? Who is better equipped?
While they are clearly trained to work in groups, I suspect that they’re trained to fight as individuals too. I doubt Yunkai only sells them in groups of 50+, they probably sell a few at a time to rich guys who want a completely reliable household guard, and that requires that they be capable individual fighters. Since they spend day and night training for over a decade, I’m sure there’s time to be drilled in both group tactics and individual drills.
Furthermore, they lack the hesitation and doubts and fear that can hamper others. They never hesitate or fail to push any advantage out of fear, and they are solely dedicated to their purpose.
It’s likely that any random unsullied warrior is an extremely capable fighter, on par or better than the famed knightly fighters.
It wasn’t a nameless Dothraki, although I can’t recall his name offhand. It was one of Drogo’s blood riders - it seemed like his second hand man. Since you advance in Dothraki society based on your skill at beheading people, it’s likely he was quite a fighter in his own right.
I can and I will continue to do so. Partly because my comments have been about how the scene looked. As I have already said a couple of times, I don’t think they intended to send any kind of message about race or colonialism or anything of the sort. I think they didn’t realize how a particular scene would play, which the same thing that happened in the Jaime/Cersei scene in the previous episode. It looked like a rape to a lot of people and I don’t think that’s how they wanted it to look. It’s unfortunate, but that kind of thing happens on TV. Game of Thrones in particular is a huge undertaking and no show is perfect.
I think that would be fascinating, but I’ll just assume you are right. Thus the issue is not “are people complaining,” it’s “are particular these complaints valid?” You can’t discard all complaints because some of them are off-base. That’s not even close to a valid argument. The same goes for the insistence that everybody has to view the show through a lens that’s utterly divorced from the real world and now this nonsense about “haters.” If you think it’s no fun to talk about this stuff, then don’t argue about it. You’re under no obligation to do so. It’s just TV and I’m not interested in crapping up anybody’s enjoyment of the show.
And I can’t agree that the showrunners “can’t win.” The show is critically acclaimed and a huge smash. If that’s not winning in TV I don’t know what is.
I think part of the disconnect is that some of us don’t believe it even looked racist or colonialist. That’s why I asked about Step 2.
I think the question of who is the best fighter is definitely one that depends on circumstance. In a no-weapons grapple, the winner would probably be someone like Khal Drogo or The Mountain - someone beefy. The slender Jaime wouldn’t stand much of a chance. However, in a one-on-one sword duel, we have good reason to believe that Jaime was one of the best. But would two-handed Jaime be as good in a chaotic battle as he was one-on-one? He’d still be good, but maybe not as good as a battle-hardened veteran like Ned Stark. Bronn might lose a fair fight against a number of the better warriors on the show - but he’s also smart enough to avoid a fair fight whenever possible. The context of the fight matters a lot.
And of course, there’s Arya vs. Ser Pounce. Could she catch him, like her dancing instructor taught her to?
but Jaime was a battle-hardened veteran; in Season 1 one of the Stark men talks about fighting beside him during the Greyjoy Rebellion and later on Tywin tells Tyrion that Jaime has been “covering himself in glory” fighting against Robb Stark. In fact, Robb’s successful battle plan was springing a trap to capture Jaime with overwhelming numbers so that his army could stand a chance of winning.
Ned deserves more play in this discussion having defeated the legendary Arthur Dayne and two other Kings Guard as a very young man, holding his own against a much younger Jaime, and being King Robert’s wingman. Just because he didn’t seek a reputation as a great fighter doesn’t mean he wasn’t among the best.
But Khal Drogo can deflect sword blades with his bare pecs and is therefore the unquestioned winner.
Well, let’s not forget that she beat Loras Tyrell, who is also famed as one of the greatest fighters in the seven kingdoms, to win a tournament in front of Renly. Also, she was trying to fight Jaime without killing him there. I certainly don’t think there’s any reason to think he would have beaten her EASILY.
Hmm. Maybe I didn’t give Jaime enough credit. I was recalling a scene in season one where Ned comments that Jaime’s pretty armor doesn’t have a scratch on it. I thought the implication was that, at least in Ned’s eyes, Jaime hadn’t seen any real battle. That could have easily been misplaced smack-talk, though. Ned wasn’t exactly known for his ability to properly read people.
Good point about Brienne vs. Jaime, Max. Had she been trying to kill him I don’t think he, in the state he was in, could have stopped her. If he had been in good shape and wearing armor I suspect he would have likely won, but it wouldn’t have been easy. On the other hand, if he had never seen her fight before, my money would be on Brienne due to Jaime underestimating her.
Wasn’t it implied that Loras usually cheats in fights. I think he road a mare in heat during his joust with the mountain. It was mentioned that Loras beat Jamie in a joust too but that anyone with sense would have bet on Jaime. Maybe he just didn’t bother to cheat against Brienne and lost as he should have against other top tier fighters.
Since the fight between Jamie and Ned was interupted we did not get to see who would win but it seemed to me that Jamie had the advantage. Of course Jamie showed up prepared to fight and it was a suprise to Ned.
In general, it can be considered a point against her that she fights fair. She fights people without trying to kill them occasionally. She has morals, which someone like the Hound would never bother with.
My viewing of the show as a whole leads me to believe that Jaime isn’t a great fighter. Maybe above average at best.
Ned mocks his shiny jousting armor, with the implication that Jaime’s fighting skills are more show than skill.
That was my only impression of his fighting up until Joffrey pointed out that Jaime is 40 years old and has no pages of consequence in the “deeds of the great knights” book. He has multiple blank pages, no doubt earmarked decades ago when his youth showed great promise as a fighter, and then 19 years go by before Robb captures him and…nothing.
I discount his fight with Brienne for multiple reasons. That never factored into why I give him little or no credit as a fighter.
And the way I remember their fight, Jaime is surprised at how good Ned is. Which doesn’t mean Ned would’ve won a fair fight, but it says something for Ned at that point.
I think he’s supposed to have been very good and with a good reputation as a fighter. I think if he was considered at the top that would have been mentioned more after losing his fighting hand. Everyone treats it like “Well, that sucks for you.” rather than “We lost our champion!”