No I have not and I don’t wanna either!
Which is also unsatisfying. The existence of Bran is a major problem for the show since he has come back to Winterfell.
That he had no hand in the trip beyond the Wall is so hard to justify that the most likely explanation is a deliberate decision on his part to not be involved, which raises a ton of questions - or it would do so, if we had any reason to think that the show is still paying attention to versimilitude.
I do agree with you that Bran was likely Littlefinger’s stumble stone - unfortunately, we can only guess what happened: When did the sisters learn the truth? How did the siblings manage to convince Yohn Royce that Sansa hadn’t been part of a murder plot against Lyssa when she had clearly lied about the circumstancs of her death? Why did Littlefinger’s net of spies miss all the meetings and discussions that must have taken place in Winterfell? After all, no one in the Great Hall showed any sign of surprise when Littlefinger was accused of treason and murder.
The way the “trial” went down, showed that the verdict was already known to all - and they were in agreement already; this kangaroo court was even worse than Tyrion’s trial since Littlefinger didn’t even get the time to consider options.
I am pretty sure the scene wasn’t meant to be a farce but that’s what it was - and insofar, it was a fitting way to terminate the character who had become a caricature of his former self quite a while ago. It reflects what the show has turned into.
It’s highly unlikely that he would have loving memories of her if he had found out about it.
Though, in a way, the story could still be true - depending on your definition of rape and kidnap. If Lyanna was a breeding apparatus for the Prince that was Promised without having any clue about Rhaegar’s true intentions, she might have been a victim of deception. Rhaegar might not have loved but used her.
Of course, if she went with Rhaegar out of teenage [del]lust[/del] love, she let the world burn around her to satisfy her own needs.
But neither Bran nor Sam seem to find this despicable but romantic.
The reason for that is that he had burned all his bridges already. The northerners didn’t trust him because he supported the Lannisters during Robb’s rebellion, and Royce didn’t trust him because he was openly manipulative towards Robyn. I’d wager it came as no surprise to either side to hear that he had done worse crimes.
But they didn’t hear evidence, just accusations*. Given Littlefinger’s appointment by the Lord of the Vale as Lord Protector, Royce should have followed his orders. A few accusations - most of them without any significance for the Vale - should not have been enough to abandon his duty.
And one of the two accusations that did matter - Littlefinger’s murder of Lysa - also meant that Sansa had lied to him and had been Littlefinger’s accomplice, if not in the deed but at least in its cover-up.
She had just admitted to that.
It’s not in character for Royce to ignore this if he hadn’t already been convinced that Littlefinger was to be blamed, and no one else.
- Compare this trial with Tyrion’s where he was confronted with witnesses and evidence - false or misleading ones, but we still saw something resembling a trial.
Since Royce already knew Littlefinger was a manipulative, murderous asshole, it’s not like it’s a huge leap to think he might have pressured Sansa to testify on his behalf.
How did Royce know Littlefinger was a murderer?
And remember the scene that took place between the most prominent figures in the Vale on the one side and Littlefinger on th other after Lysa’s death. They were willing, more than willing to call him guilty. Sansa’s dramatics convinced them to give Littlefinger not just a pass, Royce apologized to him, which must have been quite difficult for him to do.
What Royce knows is this: Sansa played a very convincing witness for Littlefinger when he and his fellow nobles were eager to get rid of him. She saved him.
And all the other accusations are not supported by any evidence or witnesses at all. None.
And worse, Littlefinger didn’t even get the option for a trial by combat. He was accused, sentenced and executed in the blink of an eye.
Who cares what any of them knew? They hate Littlefinger. The Lady of Winterfell says he should die, they want him dead, done. You think Royce is going to say “well that sounds like Littlefinger, and I’ve been trying to get rid of him for years now, but I really don’t think this evidence would hold up in a court of law as imagined in a liberal democracy. So I don’t think we should act on these impulses.”
Royce has been chaffing under Baelish for years. A lot of water has passed under the bridge since that scene in Season 4 and Royce has a fresh list of things to be pissed off about.
BTW, Royce is the father of the Nightswatch officer killed is the first episode right? The posh toff.
It was clear to me, at least, that Royce always distrusted Littlefinger. I’m not sure if the Starks even needed to tip him off – his reactions made clear his guilt, and I think he would have jumped at the chance to abandon any duty towards this asshole he never liked in the first place. Especially once he admitted that he killed Lysa.
Waymar Royce, yes.
Yeah, my point exactly. This mock trial wasn’t about justice. It was about getting rid of Littlefinger. And the way they did it, made the northern Lords and Ladies look even worse than their southern fellows.
Which is one of the reasons why I called the present Littlefinger a caricature of his former self. The most versatile player in the game of thrones, the one with a spy net that rivaled Varyses, the one who always had a plan at hand, the one who rarely failed to measure up his opposition, completely failed in his own domain.
No it didn’t. Innocent people are sentenced to death in King’s Landing. Baelish is guilty as sin. He even admitted to the murder of Lysa, which should be more than enough for Royce regardless of his supposed motivation.
But there is no evidence for this. There was evidence for Tyrion’s guilt, so the nobles watching the trial had a reason to believe the accusations were correct. It wasn’t true, but it was there for everyone to witness. And lets not forget that Tyrion was still allowed to aggravate everyone and choose an out of his predicament (unlikely as it was).
True. But this was so much out of character that it pained me to watch it. And his testimony only confirmed that Sansa had been his accomplice at least in the cover-up. Royce must consider Sansa a guilty party in the matter.
The only evidence in Tyrion’s trial was accusations, same as Baelish.
She was a child that was threatened. Easy enough to explain. And even if he doesn’t buy that, what’s he going to do about it?
Littlefinger was *out *of his domain. Littlefinger excelled in King’s Landing, which had not only an entirely different culture but also a vastly different political apparatus. The South is more corrupt, larger, a city, perfect breeding ground for gossip, scheming, treachery, and betrayal. The King/Queen is a distant figure, feared and held in awe, but distant nonetheless. King’s Landing is big, full of supplies, people do not need each other there and thus are ripe for fucking each other over.
The North are basically insular, tight-knit rural farmers. The North is a smaller domain as portrayed in the show; a simpler place where each man knows another and depends on his neighbor for survival and supplies, and looks not to some distant King, but to a very personable Liege-Lord who protects and defends him; A personal leader who sets the example for the common folk. The Warden of the North is no Kingly figure.
Littlefinger, like Ned Stark, died because he was in a land he didn’t and could’t understand. Each man’s politics was suited to the region they served. Littlefinger’s manipulations served him well in the South where he had like-minded confederates and all sorts of scum to help him backstab everyone. Ned Stark’s narrow minded insistence on honor and willingness to trust made him a perfect leader in the North, where he acted as a just guardian and moral paragon for his people. Both men are fish out of water when they go elsewhere.
Ned Stark overestimated the value placed on loyalty and honor in the South, believing those values were the same there as they were back home, that high born Lords would see his values as right as they would back in the North, and it cost him his life. Littlefinger underestimated the value placed on loyalty and honor in the North, believing the Northmen to be just as corruptible and bloodthirsty and decadent as those in the North, and it cost him his life. Both miscalculated. Ned trusted Littlefinger, because Littlefinger seemed to be his only option; he didn’t think LF would betray him. Littlefinger put all of his hope in Sansa due to his obsessive desire for her, and never conceived she would betray him; he didn’t think she had any skills to play the game. Both men died because they were trying to rule realms they were not suited to, and because they trusted the wrong person.
I don’t think loyalty or honor had anything to do with Littlefinger’s death. If Cersei had access to Bran, she’d have killed Littlefinger as well. He died because people with the power to do something about it know/think he led to the death of their parents. That’s fairly universal.
It would have been more poetic if he had been undone by being out of his element, I just don’t see it though.
Wrong. There were witnesses and circumstantial evidence. And despite of all that, and despite everyone’s interest in seeing him being condemned, he could still choose an ordeal by battle.
But he now knows that she played him and the others, that she played the innocent child, that she lied masterfully to protect Littlefinger from him.
She is a proven liar. The one thing he could do, and what he should have done already, is ask for guidance from his Lord, or if he doesn’t trust his judgment at all: retreat to the Vale with his forces.
Honor and loyalty did though. You can’t convince a Stark to betray their blood. That’s honor, that’s loyalty. You can’t convince Yohn Royce (who has his issues with LF anyway) to go against the Lady in the North; not for some usurper who, as Royce has just learned, murdered his way to Protector of the Value. That is honor.
How is that different? Sansa is a witness. Letters are circumstantial evidence. Both cases literally rest on believing what other people say.
Guess Littlefinger should have asked for a trial by combat then. Still ends with Arya cutting his throat.
Yeah, Sansa lied to protect a grown man that could kill her at any time. That’s infinitely understandable and forgivable.
I suppose. Although I don’t think that’s what happened. Sansa and Arya didn’t team up because of blood, they teamed up because an omniscient person told them about Littlefinger’s scheming. If Bran hadn’t been there and Sansa and Arya independently thought “nah bitch, wolf pack for life” I think you have a much stronger argument.
Karl Wallenda was the Greatest tight roper walker of all time. Until one day he ended up as red paste on a pavement. ( warning, man falls to his death, although not particularly graphic). The man was surely extremely skilled and this was not more difficult than previous walks. Ditto for Ned and LF. Fail only once.
I disagree that Ned was particularly naive in the South or that LF’s should have had a contingency. The issue is what Cersei identified back in Season 1; the Game of Thrones; you win or you die.
Ned had plenty of political acumen. I mean he was one of the leaders who overthrew the Mad King. That required delicate diplomacy with major houses. He also was the one who was sent South to pacify the remaining regions, not Robert or Stannis or Jon Arryn, but Ned, remember thats why he was in Dorne in the first place. The game is continuous. You have to win every time, you can get out of a thousand sticky spots but you fail to do so once; you are screwed. Ned failed; once. Lost his head. Baelish misread the situation, once. Contingency failed. Got his throat split.