That whole scene seemed unrealistic to me. Why would they have Ned make a confession to a crowd of subjects? He could easily have stolen that moment to announce the queen’s incest and Joffrey’s illegitimacy to the assembled citizenry. Doesn’t make sense that the queen would have given him any such opening (even if he didn’t actually take it).
If you look, so did everyone else who isn’t interested in the kingdom burning - like Varys. A bunch of them came rushing over to try to change his mind.
Yeah, it’s not like they had his daughter or anything. History is full of people confessing to crimes they didn’t commit for the sake of saving the lives of their family members. The annals of various despots are full of them.
-Joe
First, why would he do that? Varys heavily implies that Sansa’s life is at stake here. Second, Cersei would just say “see, he’s a treasonous liar!” and kill him.
Ned has nothing to gain by yelling out about the incest. Cersei has tons to gain by letting him speak. Makes perfect sense to me.
Im thinking Ned was given some assurances that if he confessed and showed contrition, they would let him live and leave his family and estate intact.
- Preservation of his honor.
- Paving the way for his son.
It has been made clear that Ned has a reputation as an honest man. A word from him could have undermined Joffrey’s throne, even if he didn’t live to see the outcome. At the very least, it would have undermined the fighting morale of the populace while his son was marching on the city. (He has more than one child to think about.)
Bottom line, I don’t think the queen could safely assume that Ned would meekly confess in that situation.
Since the promise was he could join the Night’s Watch, it would have been Robb’s estate at that point…much like it turned into once Joff defied his mother (and sense).
If things had gone to plan, it would have saved his life, saved Sansa’s (at least according to Varys), and opened the possibility of talking Robb and Cat out of pressing their conflict with the Lannisters.
Joff betrayed him on that first point. The second should be fine - there’s no reason to kill Sansa, save pure perversity, since she did as asked, and Ned didn’t defy him - but this IS Joff we’re talking about so it may be a bit soon to trust her safety. The last…a conflict that could have been ended by talks will now be a vengeance fuelled civil war.
This serves nobody, so Cersei, Varys, and Ned all wanted to avoid it, but Joffrey’s not exactly a king who will let his petulance take a back seat to sense.
As others have said before I think she would have been satisfied either way. Either Ned capitulates or he would have proved his treason in public.
In any case, from the looks exchanged between Sansa and Ned it was pretty clear that Ned was in the pocket. He was hoping to save his daughter. His son could fight for himself and die with honor if it cane to that. If that’s what he was after he would have stayed in the dungeon.
Exactly. At least in the Western European practice, a coronation formalizes the monarch’s assumption of the throne, and provides a ceremonial celebration of it, but legally the new monarch assumes the powers and duties of the throne the moment his or her predecessor dies: “The King is dead - long live the King!”
We don’t actually know that Robert’s letter to Stannis got through, do we? It might easily have been intercepted. I’m not even sure Renly knows about Joffrey’s incestuous origins.
That may be true, but if so, then I’m bewildered as to why Renly urged Ned to take control, even offering his own men. It’s easiest for me to believe that Renly knows.
We don’t know that the letter got through, but since we didn’t hear any reports from Varys or Littlefinger as to ravens getting shot down…or more realistically, words was going to get out. Stopping messengers wasn’t going to keep things coming to a head as soon as Robert kicked it.
As for Renly - really, I think he knows. There’s only one way for Joffrey to have been an illegitimate heir. Whether his father was Jaime or some random chimney sweep isn’t too important to another Baratheon’s claim on the throne.
-Joe
That really was difficult to watch, Myself and many people are upset about the death of Ned Stark, now I understand it’s a series based on books but a few people made good points. In the True Blood series many people who died in the books were saved on the show. This was truly painful it was like as someone also said if they had killed off Tony Soprano in season one or if the had g
Renly doesn’t need to know Joffrey’s a bastard to know he’d be a crap king, and needs to be dethroned for the good of the kingdom.
It’s treason, yes, but so was how Robert ended up on the throne to begin with.
His conversation with Ned gives evidence both ways - he presents his argument as ‘Joff’s a petty little SOB, and needs to be dethroned’, not ‘Joff’s not Robert’s son’, but ‘Stannis is the rightful heir’ did come up, so…who knows.
That really was difficult to watch, Myself and many people are upset about the death of Ned Stark, now I understand it’s a series based on books but a few people made good points. In the True Blood series many people who died in the books were saved on the show. This was truly painful it was like as someone also said if they had killed off Tony Soprano in season one or if the had gone through with the idea to kill off Jack Sheppard on LOST in the 1st episode? People relate with certain characters and Ned was one of those.As a father it really pained me to watch even though it’s a show, but I myself have 2 daughters and I honestly felt as if this were a real person and I knew him, he was a man who was forced to lie with the hope that he may see his family again only to be murdered by the cowardly little bastard Joffrey, now again I know it’s just a story but, it truly killed the show for me and I know a ton of people are honestly upset with HBO you made us fall in love with a character only to kill him off too soon. I think it was a terrible mistake and should have been thought through some heroes shouldn’t have to die… Ned Stark was one of those.
That’s what I meant. Legally, it makes no difference, but politically and socially, it makes a BIG difference that Joffrey is the product of incest and not just the Queen’s infidelity.
What heroes are allowed to die? Why is Ned not one of those?
Didn’t we just do this?
I’m going to miss Ned too, but killing main loved characters is one way to make the story more compelling. In a tv show where you know nothing truly bad will ever happen to our heroes, you always know they’ll get out of their current predicament, and at the end of the episode everything will be alright. So there’s never true tension - you’re never in doubt that these characters you’ll care about will die. But if you do kill a main, heroic character - you show the audience that anyone can die at any time, and that there’s no ultimate justice in this show. It’s not going to softball you. It can be harder to watch, but it also makes you more involved.
Had to run downstairs and grab my dinner, so I missed the edit window, so to expand upon this…
It seems to be pretty common knowledge in King’s Landing that Joffrey is a petty little punk - Robert knew he’d be a crap king even without knowing he wasn’t his, Ned knew he’d be a crap king, even before figuring out he was a bastard, Renly knew he’d be a crap king even before this blatant proof thereof, whether he knows he’s a bastard or not.
The only people who don’t seem to think King Joffrey Baratheon, First of His Name is going to be another Aerys the Mad (the king Robert dethroned) are the people who think they can control him - Cercei, Littlefinger, Varys - or naive children - Sansa.
Yes, Robert is also a crap king, but he’s crap in a completely different way than Joff or Aerys… He pawns the ruling off on other people, and insists on spending more money than the kingdom has…but he at least indulged in sex, food, and booze, not random executions.
True - Renly definitely favors “good of the kingdom” over rightful heirs based on succession. Similar to Varys, but with (seemingly) differing opinions on what constitutes the good of the kingdom.
I have read the books, but it’s been long enough I honestly don’t recall what Renly knows. It doesn’t seem to matter, though, since either way he’s in favor of the throne going to him over someone with a stronger claim.
Exactly–and I think Joffrey was well aware of this and used it to his (entirely selfish and shortsighted) advantage. Cersei is the regent and is certainly giving him directions in private: do this, make this proclamation, hold this event, blah blah blah. Joffrey is an arrogant little shit who hates taking orders, even from his psycho mother. So he listens to her plans and nods, having prepared a speech of his own–and when the moment comes, he gives that speech, condemns Ned, and smirks as he makes his mother lose face and, in his opinion, gains it for himself.
He outmaneuvered her by being much stupider than anyone could have imagined.
As for bringing Ned up to confess, surely they got his word prior to the confession that he would confess. And of course he could have betrayed that word once he got up there; but if he’s willing to promise to confess falsely, the man’s spirit is already broken, and all he has left is his daughters.
As for folks talking about how angry they are at HBO, for me and many other folks encountering the story in one medium or another, this is the exact moment when we realized we had something special. I’ll happily give you a list of two dozen fantasy series and a dozen fantasy movies in which the only good guys who die are black or wearing red shirts. By killing off a major character in a pointless fashion (i.e., he doesn’t die heroically in battle redeeming family honor or anything), the authors of this story made it clear they’re playing for keeps.
As for the person complaining that the story is just whores and gore, I thought the best scene in the episode was the whore scene, in which Tyrion drunkenly explains his ill-fated marriage. Beautifully shot, beautifully acted, beautifully written, and in some ways harder to take than Ned’s death.
Yes, that’s one of the things that has impresses me about the show from the beginning. There are no sacred cows. No one can bs assured success or even survival. Come on, in episode one a 10 year old boy was thrown off a tower and a 13 year old girl was whores out to a tribe of brutal warriors by her own brother. It is strongly hinted that the queen murdered her first child. Given all thus it shows a kind of naïveté or cowardice to say that Ned’s death ruins the show. Really in terms of the world he lives in, Ned himself is the engineer of his own demise. He took every step nearer his death voluntarily. Ned was “good” in many ways, but more than anything else, he was a fool and he died a fool’s death.