Game of Thrones -- OPEN SPOILERS for the first book in the series [edited title]

Cafe Society
#1

Almost finished re-reading this. It’s gonna be hard not to just forge ahead and re-read the other three books, but I’ll wait until we know whether HBO will go to a second season.

If I’m understanding correctly, the shit hits the fan when Jon Arryn discovers the truth about Joffrey Lannister’s parentage. Cersei has him killed, Ned is appointed Hand to the King, and then Ned finds out the truth.

Ned, honorable sort that he is, confronts Cersei and says he’s going to tell Robert. Cersei, whore that she is, tries seduction and when that doesn’t work, arranges for Robert’s death and then Ned’s.

I was disappointed that Martin made Ned so naive that he’d think that Cersei would go quietly, and also disappointed that Cersei thought he’d respond to seduction.

I realize Martin had to set things in motion for war, but I’m wondering if he could have done it differently. Ned and Cersei were both kinda stupid in how they handled things.

What do you think?

Also, my favorite chapter in the book is toward the end, when Jon Snow tries to leave the Wall but his friends bring him back. That was beautifully done.

Anyone have a favorite chapter, character, or scene?

#2

Given, it’s been a couple years since I’ve read it, but if I remember correctly, Cercei wasn’t expecting Ned to be killed that day - humiliated publicly on trumped-up charges, certainly, but not actually killed. I think she expresses later that she was shocked that it had happened the way it had, and that Joffery had done a lot of things that day on his own.

#3

That’s right. Killing Ned was a horrible decision, they really needed him alive as a hostage but she wouldn’t contradict her spoiled son in public.

I’m not a big fan of fantasy novels but as a big lover of “hard-sci-fi” I had always hoped to find one that would change my mind. A few weeks ago after reading this review ( the customer review by MrSJEM a bout halfway down the page )http://www.amazon.com/Game-Thrones-Song-Ice-Fire/dp/0553386794/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1301582155&sr=8-1

I am so glad I did, I have been totally engrossed and the timing is exactly right as I am heading for a week-long vacation and I will have PLENTY to read, I am about 20% into Clash of Swords right now.

My favorite part ( hard to choose, there are so many ) was watching Dany actually fall truly in love with the Dothraki warlord she was sold to and the fate of her nasty brother.

#4

First of all, Cersei had nothing to do with Jon Arryn’s death - that was Petyr, acting through Lysa.

Second of all, I don’t think Ned and Cersei were stupid, just tragically flawed. Ned was honorable above all else, and expected others to be as honorable - that was his defining characteristic, and his doom. Cersei, OTOH, had always used sex to get what she wanted (except from Robert), and didn’t see any difference between Ned and any other man she manipulated; besides, as Book 4 showed us, she has a tendency to think too much of herself and too little of others, along with the tendency to overreact and not think things all the way through.

#5

I’m re-reading it again, about 150 pages from the end.

One thing that I’m a little confused about - Jaime Lannister is known as the Kingslayer because as a member of the Kingsguard he turned against King Aerys. But did he actually kill him? I thought Robert killed him at the Trident? Or was that one of Aerys’ brothers that Robert killed - the one with the rubies in his armor?

There’s so many frickin’ characters I can’t keep 'em all straight, even with the crib notes at the end.

#6

That was Prince Rhaegar Robert killed, the king’s eldest son and heir to the throne. Jaime in fact killed the king, but under the circumstances, it was probably the right thing to do.

#7

Yes, but remember that “right thing to do” and “honorable thing to do” don’t necessarily correlate, especially in ASOIAF. Even though it probably saved at least King’s Landing from utter destruction, repudiating his oath that way was wrong, by Westeros society’s standards.

#8

Is this thread supposed to relate only to the first book? I’m not quite half way through the 3rd book now. A Game of Thrones is my favorite of the series thus far. As I said in another thread, I think Martin did a fantastic job with it. I have 2 favorite parts, quoted from memory so maybe not spot on.

  1. Tyrion was upset with Joffrey at Winterfel because Joff wouldn’t go visit Bran after his fall or something. Tyrion smacked him a good one and the Hound said something like, “Joffrey will not forget that.” Tyrion’s response was great: “I hope not, and if he does you be a good dog and remind him.”

  2. Also involves a good smacking, when Robert lays hands on Cersei in Ned’s chamber and Cersei says of her bruise, “I will wear it as a badge of honor.” Robert’s response, “You’ll wear it in silence or I shall honor you again.”

#9

Ned wasn’t quite *that *naive. He thought he had Littlefinger’s support. And if Cersei hadn’t been able to secure his support behind Ned’s back she probably would have left quietly as she’d have had no other choice.

I don’t think we know that until Storm of Swords, if not Feast for Crows. Should we be avoiding spoilers for the later books?

#10

Aerys needed killing, but they don’t stress this so much in the first book, where Jaime is just a remote figure of evil. In hindsight, I should have given more credit to the fact that Tyrion loves him. Jaime’s story doesn’t begin to be fleshed out until the end of the second book.
I’ve just re-read Game of Thrones too, and it was obviously much easier to keep track of all the characters this time. My favorite chapters were those about Tyrion and Daenerys. (I’m on the second book now, and I like Tyrion even more, but I’m not enjoying Daenerys’s story so much. Too much weird magic - vague visions and prophesies. I liked her better when she was riding around with Drogo, slowly realizing that her brother was an idiot.)

I did find it hard to believe that Ned would be so stupid about Cersei. He already knows she’s capable of incest and deceiving her husband about his children’s parentage. He suspects that she killed Jon Arryn and attacked Bran because they discovered her secret. It doesn’t make sense that he would expect her to slink away, ashamed of herself, when he confronts her. When Ned saw Robert hit her, I think it gave him the idea that she was much weaker than she really was.

I thought Joffrey was over-the-top evil and spoiled and stupid. It seems unlike Cersei to have indulged him to the point that she couldn’t control him.

#11

Ah, thanks. That wasn’t in the first book.

Not quite honorable above all else – he did confess to treason, to save the lives of his daughters. It’s true that he was physically weak at the time (broken leg, starving, etc.) but he was apparently okay with leaving the kingdom in the hands of the Lannisters.

And yeah, if possible we should avoid describing events in the later books.

#12

Well, to be fair, the thread title says “[series] discussion.” I’d personally like to avoid any spoilers from the last 2 books. (Do brackets = mod change?)

Regarding the later books, I will say that without Ned I’m kind of left without a true hero to root for. Robb is noble enough, but a lot of action involving him comes to us third hand as he doesn’t get his own chapters. I consider Jon a hero to root for, but he is pretty far removed from the political goings on of Westeros. I still can’t decide what the heck to think of Tyrion.

I’ll also admit that when I get to a Dany chapter I kind of feel let down. I just really don’t care about her yet. I know something’s coming, but it’s taking a while to get there.

#13

It’s strange, because the Dany chapters are among my favorite. They have this great Robert E. Howard quality to them.

#14

Yep, a mod changed the title, maybe after seeing some talk about the subsequent books. I’ll ask that it be changed back.

#15

I guess I’m just so wrapped up in what’s happening in Westeros that I feel a little annoyed to be dragged away from it for Dany’s story. That said, most of the fantasy elements of the series so far involve her.

#16

I liked Dany’s chapters well enough in the first book, but as the series progresses, she becomes more and more extraneous to the really interesting (IMO) stuff, and therefore a tedious distraction.

OTOH, the actress playing Dany in the miniseries is so adorably enthusiastic about her role in all the promo materials I’ve seen that I can’t help but like her, which makes me re-like Dany by extension.

#17

I loathe her, and was annoyed every time the story turned towards her yet again.

#18

I found myself rooting for Brienne. Ugly as can be, not especially smart, loathed and distrusted by almost everyone, carrying a torch for a royal who she can never have, but an honorable and skilled knight. She tries to do her best despite every obstacle.

I think my favorite scene was when Tyrion was getting instructions from his father about going to a city (King’s Landing?) and taking firm control of it for the Lannisters. He sighs, “I know, I know. Heads. Pikes. Walls.”

(Paraphrased a little, maybe, but I think that’s it).

#19

I like the scene where Tyrion reports back to his father after the battle in which his arm was injured, and receives his usual warm welcome. Tyrion says: “Might I trouble you to send for your maesters? Unless you relish the notion of having a one-armed dwarf for a son”.

Nearly everything out of Tyrion’s mouth is great, actually. I hope Dinklage can pull it off.

#20

I disagree. The reasons behind what Jamie did are entirely unknown to anyone else until he tells Brienne, if people knew and accepted it as truth i think most would consider him honorable. Brienne who is kind of a stickler for those things does a 180 on her opinion of him when she hears and believes his story.