A Song of Ice and Fire [Warning: some spoilers unboxed]

Cafe Society
1

I just recently started reading this series, and I’ve currently gotten through the first two, A Game of Thrones, and A Clash of Kings. It’s awesome. I love the multiple perspectives and the realistic depiction of quasi-medieval warfare and life. I also love how no character is perfect—Ned Stark is the paragon of an honorable man, but he has a bastard son, Robert Baratheon is a nice guy but a drunked lout and a useless king, and so on. I really recommend this series to anyone interested in fantasy or shows like I, Claudius (which it was very reminiscent of). The intrigue is just great.

And for some spoiler discussion:

A Game of Thrones:

I totally did not expect Ned to be killed by the Lannisters. The White Knight got his head chopped off by the evil boy king; not many writers are willing to do that, and he did it in a way that didn’t seem forced for shock value. I do admit that I was kind of going for Viserys at first, until he got “crowned”, but the bit with Dany and Drogo turned out to be very interesting. I also wasn’t expecting the prophesied warrior child to be born deformed and dying.

A Clash of Kings:

This one was even better than the first; it really showed how civil wars over a throne can completely degenerate into all-out free-for-alls. Theon was a truly hateable character, only to be killed by an even worse one. I was kind of glad the Boltons got more play, though; how can you have a place called “the Dreadfort” not be important? I was rooting for Stannis the whole time, although I knew he wouldn’t win. I love how Martin made you forget about Petyr just as he comes back having won the favor of Highgarden and having saved the necks of everyone in Joffrey’s court. I hope Melisandre has a prominent role in the next book, because the Lord of Light kicks butt.

Also, who are you favorite characters? And your most hated ones?

I liked Stannis; he reminded me of a more hardened and bitter version of myself in a lot of ways, and the fact that he represented the real face of justice and the law, only to be ignored and feared struck a chord. I loved the line, “There is no creature on Earth more terrifying than a truly just man.” Varys was also the perfect spymaster type. Theon Greyjoy was probably the most repulsive character (you’ll understand why if you haven’t read the second one yet), although Joffrey was pretty bad. Tyrion was a great anti-hero; you wanted to like him, but then you looked at all the bad things he did.

And I liked all the symbolism and how things were just-slightly-not-real, too. The religion of the sept is obviously Catholicism, with a septinity instead of a trinity. The religion of the weirwoods is paganism, and R’hllor seems to be Allah. Also, were the Asshai’i supposed to be more Indian-looking, Middle Eastern, or East Asian?

By the way, does anyone know if “Non creatura in mundo formidabilior quam vere vir justus est” is a suitable Latin translation of “There is no creature on Earth more terrifying than a truly just man,”?

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

2

Terrific series. If only the next book would ever come out. One thing you’ll gain a sense of after you’ve read more (and re-read, probably) is that each chapter is truly told from that character’s POV. That is, it’s warped by their own biases and perceptions, and there is necessarily conflicting accounts of what is actually happening. It really adds even more shades of gray.

Tyrion is by far the most interesting character to me.

3

Tyrion is my favorite character too. I just saw that he’s going to be played by Peter Dinklage in the HBO adaptation. Great casting choice.

4

Tyrion is fantastic, and has been my favorite POV character since the beginning. I really like Brienne as a POV character as well. I had always hoped that Sandor Clegane would become a POV character.

5

I like Jamie, as he is first introduced boinking his sister and tossing small children out the window while cracking jokes, and Martin still manages to make him into a (semi)sympatheitc character as the books go on.

That said, I wish Martin would develop some sort of central struggle or plot line in the books, the last one was basically a series of rather brutal vignettes. There is becoming less and less to connect the various stories together other then they all happen in the same universe.

Course all that presumes he’ll actually publish another book someday…

6

This wasn’t really hammered home to me until Cersei became a POV character, but now it’s cased me to go back and re-read the first three books in a new light, really appreciating the biased, non-omniscient narrators for what they are.

7

I fear he’s going to pull a David Gerrold an just never return to the series. I know Martin says he’s got an arc for the series mapped out in his head, but it seems to me like he’s ben improvising in the last couple of books.

I do think the soap opera nature of these books lendsthemselves well to a TV series – especially when it can be given the freedom that HBO allows. I’m kind of excited anout that.

8

Yeah, I definitely worry that this series will never be finished. My understanding is that A Feast for Crows was cut in half for publication, and that the next one was supposed to come relatively quickly because it’d be the second half of the book.

9

Yeah, I noticed that, but I forgot to mention it in the OP. I really noticed it when Arya was at Harrenhall; the Lannisters were shown as all total bastards even though Roose Bolton (and even Arya herself) did things just as unsavory.

I do hope that he finishes the series; even if not, though, it could be made into some great movies or TV shows. I think especially with a kind of “soap opera” style TV series, it doesn’t really matter if the books are ever finished are not.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

10

I hate Petyr, have since the beginning, I wonder if Martin will manage to change that. I like Jon, and Tyrion, but my favorite is Sam. And the red woman is vile and I think Stannis is a fool.

I like how there is a new age of reason trying to get started, but it may not be as reality based as its proponents would like. Old wives tales have life, and that which runs contrary to reason is getting stronger as the books go one.

11

No! Littlefinger is my absolute favourite!

Like someone put it in another thread: He’s a modern spindoctor in a world not yet ready for them. No matter what he does, I still think he rocks.

And yeah… this would be my favourite fantasy series ever! Even if he doesn’t finish it :frowning:

12

I’m in the middle of rereading the series, and am just starting A Storm of Swords. Tyrion is my favorite, and I really love Brienne in all her awkward earnestness. Every chapter is full of action and twists and turns. Incredible.

13

Littlefinger is my favorite, too. I am 98% sure he’s going to end up with his head on a pike, at which point I will rend my clothing in despair. Just once I’d like the conniving weasel to (well, win is asking too much) survive with his life, head, and manhood in tact at the end of his saga.

Tyrion bugs me, probably because I don’t find his wit particularly witty and I sense GRRM chuckling mightily to himself behind every quip he gives the little man.

But then again, I like Sansa. your cue to dismiss me out of hand

14

I’m told, in a thread I wrote in another forum, that there are a total of seven books planned, which means that the end may near sometime during the current geological age.

15

I was SOOOOO proud of myself after about my tenth reread of all the books to have figured out who jons mother was. It became so obvious on further rereads that i don’t know how i could have possibly missed it. I also love all the tiny little details thrown in that make so much more sense after you’ve read the books a few times, like when Ned is asking Rob to leave Danny alone and he says how after the battle of the Trident Roose Bolton wanted to cut Barristan Selmys throat but Robert had him nursed back to health instead and now trusted him completely, when you first read that you have no idea who Roose Bolton is, but after further rereads you know he was a total bastard. Also, every single dream and premonition comes true in some way.

16

Better than me. If you’re thinking of who I’m thinking of, I had no inkling until I read the Amazon discussions.

How do you do spoilers, anyway?

17

[.spoiler] [./spoiler] without the periods.

18

In regard to Ned’s “drawback”… It’s not his bastard son (as DigitalC was alluding to, his parentage is a mystery, the dominant theory being that he’s actually Ned’s nephew, being Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark’s kid). His true drawback is probably that he IS the paragon of an honorable man - it puts him at a distinct disadvantadge with everyone else in the book.

I’m thinking Martin’s decision to go back and fill in the five-year gap was a mistake. He probably had his series all planned out, but didn’t really have the storyline fleshed out for the gap, hence why Books 4 and 5 are taking so long.

19

Ned’s flaw is that he assumes that everyone is as honorable as he is, which makes him pretty much oblivious to human duplicity. Unfortunately, his children - especially Robb and Sansa - seemed to inherit this trait.

Anyways, stuff I’ve figured out:

  1. Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna

  2. The two “mummers” Arya overheard in Book 1 were Varys and Magister Illyrio. Those two are involved in virtually every event in the story.

  3. Mellisandre is a fraud, although she may not know it. Remember, her flaming sword didn’t produce heat, while Thoros of Myr’s did.

  4. Maester Morwen is not to be trusted: he knew Miri Maz Dhur (the Maegi) in Asshai.

  5. Everything leads back to Asshai.

  6. Coldhands is Brenden Stark.

  7. Howland Reed knows the answer to many mysteries, which is why we haven’t met him yet.

  8. “Ice” may be the enemy, but that doesn’t make “fire” good. Both are destructive forces, and I believe that it’s the conflict between them that knocked the world’s seasons out of whack. Salvation won’t come from R’hallor or from Dany’s dragons - just like it did the first time, it’ll come from the Children of the Forest.

Yes, I’ve put a lot of thought into this series.

20

I pretty much agree with your first point. The same thing occurred to me when reading Game of Thrones for the second time. I searched a bit on the Internet and thisdoes a good job of summarizing all the evidence. It should make for a nice twist and brings Jon Snow back into the main story.

There are lots of great characters; Tyrion and Littlefinger have been mentioned. Tyrion’s story will be interesting in the next book and I would imagine Littlefinger is a major character in the next to next book. Incidentally the young Orson Welleswould have made a great Littlefinger.

  Along with Tyrion and Littlefinger, Varys, Illyrio and Doran are the five puppetmasters who control a lot of the action. It will be fascinating to watch how they combine with each other and who wins in the end. Of course there are probably a couple of other puppetmasters who we don't know of yet.

Robb, yes, but Sansa is gradually being educated in the ways of the world and under Littlefinger’s tutelage I bet she will emerge as quite the schemer and possibly a puppetmaster in her own right.