I was thinking of it a bit differently. Ned brings John back to Winterfell and raises him alongside his trueborn children, and never corrects anyone who assumes he is Jon’s father. I think it’d be reasonable for someone seeing this to think that he’d claimed him as his son. That’s kind of what I was meaning as “Ned’s word” - surprised you didn’t get that, not being in my head and all.
Shucks…
I’m totally not though. Out of the Dunk and Egg books I’ve only read the Hedge Knight. Don’t ask me anything about AFFC. Don’t ask me about much of what happen pre-War of the Usurper. I didn’t get R+L=J at all until lurking on westeros.org after I read the books.
How about this…we will all find out the truth when the one remaining person who was at the death of Lyanna appears in the books. Howland Reed, Lord of Graywater Watch, was Ned’s only companion to survive that trip to the deathbed of Lyanna. Either we are gonna meet him, or he revealed the truth to his children.
BTW Snarky, you forgot to mention, Lysa killed Jon Arryn!!
He’s dead before the books start though, and that’s not a spoiler. I was getting all the big spoilers out of the way, not deaths.
ETA I guess that is a big spoiler. Good call.
Also, Renly and Loras are gay! (which apparently is going to be… obvious).
I feel so sad for all the girls who mentioned they are only watching the show because of Sean Bean.
Bah, they aren’t worthy of it anyway.
I’m starting to misguess if I ever finished reading Storm of Swords now, since I do have a memory of a wedding massacre, but I might just be thinking of Kill Bill, which came out right around when I was reading it. I definitely rushed my way through books 2&3 (I had a tendency to speed read and never absorb anything around that time of my life), which I didn’t enjoy as much as the first, which is the main reason I never got around to reading book 4 (and also because I was advised by everyone who DID read it to wait until book 5 was about to come out and read them back to back…it’s been a long wait…)
I love the Sansa chapters! Perfect evocation of a naive dimbulb :D. They’re seriously good writing.
The fact that he let Catelyn believe it for so long despite how much discomfort it obviously caused her. And despite that if Jon were Ned’s nephew I think Cat would be more than willing to help hide his identity. There was just no good reason to hide it from her. For me this is stronger than all the vague little hints to Lyanna.
He also says something like “Lets see what my sons have found” referring to Rob and Jon. But trying to glean anything one way or the other from how he refers to Jon seems like pointless nitpicking to me. If Ned wanted to lie about Jon I don’t think he would feel the need to dance around the wording of it regardless of how honourable he is.
Sansa chapters are the best chapters. Even if you’re too [expunged] to recognize Sansa’s worth as a character, her chapters are the ones that give you access to the Hound and Littlefinger, [del]two of[/del] the best characters in the book.
If he swore to his dying sister to keep Jon’s parentage secret and to, say, “raise him as if he was your own son,” he would stand by his word, regardless of later inconvenience or peril to him, or the discomfort of his loved ones.
Agreed with Elendil’s Heir about Ned’s promise. He thinks about what he told her as she lay dying constantly. He thinks of how much his promise has hurt people.
Spectralist, what are your thoughts on what went down between Rhaegar and Lyana, and at the Tower of Joy?
Possibly but “keep his parentage secret” or something like that seems much too specific for a deathbed request. Just plain “Protect him” or “Keep him safe” or something like that would seem much more likely. Even if it was that specific it would seem odd to me for Ned to not eventually tell Cat unless he for some reason didn’t believe she could keep it a secret. And it just doesn’t seem like that would have been the case.
Dunno. We have too little information on the Tower of Joy for me to have any real idea what went on there. As far as I can recall all we know of the Tower of Joy event is the 7 vs 3 thing. And that Lyanna was probably there. I say probably because we only learn that from a fever dream and it could easily be that different important events in Ned’s life merged in the dream. Unlikely but I’d not consider it certain Lyanna was there without corroboration from another source.
As far as Rhaegar and Lyanna again we have so little info. Robert clearly believes that Lyanna was raped. But there’s not the slightest hint anywhere else that I can recall that he’s right. So it seems likely there was a consensual relationship of some sort. I only think that because most people seem to have a good opinion of Rhaegar. But we hear so little about Rhaegar throughout the series I still find myself thinking there’s at least some truth to Robert’s version of events.
What we do know is that the three biggest badasses on the kingsguard were not with Rhaegar at the battle, they were not with the king at the castle and they were not with viserys and daenerys. They stayed at the tower, something they would not have willingly done unless THEY felt it was the most important place to be. Guarding Rhaegers kidnap/rape victim does not strike me as good enough reason, guarding his true love who is about to give birth to his heir does.
Isn’t the argument that Ned’s memory of that is completely unreliable?
Also, what’s the name of the series? A Song of Ice and Fire. Stark=Ice, Targaryen=Fire. Jon’s story is the song of ice and fire.
Dany’s vision in the House of the Undying suggests a different interpretation.
I always took the man to be Rhaegar, the woman Lyanna and the child Jon. The third “head” is still iffy at this point, though.
How is that different?
Well, if Rhaegar didn’t knock whatshername up, what on earth was the Kingsguard doing there instead of protecting the, you know, king?
Uh, no Ice refers to the white walkers. The series is basically the self destruction of the seven kingdoms (The north and Riverlands are crushed, the Lannisters are reeling, the iron islands just invaded highgarden, the vale is under siege by the barbarians Tyrion armed and ruled by littlefinger who is only interested in sowing chaos and Dorne is probably going to go to war against the crown because of what happened to princess Myrcella) and while all this is going on Dany and the White walkers are both preparing their respective invasions. By the time they get to the seven kingdoms there really isn’t going to be a whole lot to fight over.
I’m rereading the series for the millionth time in preparation for the upcoming release of the 5th book. What amazes me is how I tear through the first 3 books, putting all other things aside and all I want to do is read, even knowing well the outcome. The books are just page-turners. But now I’m reading Crows, and I have to sort of make myself reread it. It’s just less exciting than the others.
I sure hope the next is better.
Something to consider here is plausible deniability. Ned knows Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and knows he isn’t a product of rape, but love. His sister swears him to keep Jon safe. This is Ned’s blood, and he knows that to keep Jon safe, he will have to keep him close, always…so he decides to claim him as his bastard. Ned ALSO knows that, if Robert finds out about Jon, given how he loses his gourd over Targaryans, he WILL kill the child. So Ned is left with a child he must return home with, that his friend Robert will obviously know about, and that his wife clearly didn’t bear.
He could let Cat in on the whole shebang, but knowing the truth of the matter, she will be likely to coddle Jon and treat him as respected family, blood…which, if witnessed by Robert, would make him suspicious. After all, what woman would so coddle a bastard begot by her husband? By keeping her in the dark, Cat does what any mother, especially in such a social environ as the Seven Kingdoms, might do…she treats Jon with just shy of open contempt. Her honest reaction thereby creates a further shield for Jon’s safety, despite the pain and distrust it cost Ned to provide it.