I’m afraid you’re right, and I have a relatively big screen. Just before the scene shifted I thought I saw something in the left foreground, but couldn’t even be sure.
It wasn’t an artistic decision, the dogs are simply hard to train. They were removed from the wilding fight because they could not work with horses at all. So the choices were either to downplay the wolves or use shitty obviously cgi wolves.
The discussion in the episode thread about Ned and whether he was stupid, has reminded me of another question:
Given the evidence Jaime and Cersei had of Varys’ spy network, isn’t it incredible that they didn’t ask themselves why they were still attached to their heads after years of continuous indisgressions and living proof of their liaison?
Jaime might have even wanted this affair to become apparent* but Cersei - the early Cersei of AGoT, not the one of AFfC – had to know that she had much to lose and simply could not have been so lucky for so long.
So, their question should have been: Why isn’t Robert informed?
Is this ever a point of discussion in any of Jaime’s or Cersei’s chapters?
Of course, Ned should have asked the same question and it should have made him wonder if there wasn’t more going on than he knew but he was by far not as familiar with the many-eyes-and-ears practice that was a normal part of Cersei’s life in King’s Landing for many years.
- Do I imagine it or did he say something like that at some point in the books?
Forgot to add a word about Ned’s “stupidity”: Tyrion is often called clever by many readers and yet, he was played by Littlefinger and Varys too, even though he had far more reason to be careful while dealing with them. Actually, we know he was distrustful – and still he was fooled by them. So, if we call Ned stupid for falling victim to the grand schemers in Westeros, we must do the same with Tyrion and everyone else involved in the game of thrones.
There was the whole “war for Cersei’s cunt” line from the TV show…which I believe was in the books, even if it wasn’t a direct quote.
As for the rest, Jaime would have been convinced that Varys was afraid of the Lannisters in general and Jaime in particular.
And Cersei…eh, if she even thought of Varys in general she would have had his head cut off instantly. The man is far too dangerous in general.
Then again, so is Littlefinger. The difference being that in the books he was kind of subtle about it, so she might have missed it. On the TV show…I don’t like how blatant he is. Everyone would have a reason to squash him, and he really has no power. I have trouble believing he’ still alive, TV-wise.
-Joe
Ah, yes, I think you’re right, something like that was in the books.
I still think it’s odd that early Cersei seemed to believe that she actually got away with it; but then, yeah, she would have acted against Varys if she had suspected anything. Her total ignorance is just one of the things that strike me as .. implausible.
Agreed; tv-Littlefinger is such an obvious schemer that it’s hard to see why he is still breathing.
My take in both the book and the show was that the situation towards the end was so chaotic and dangerous that anyone could have been betrayed and killed by someone else. Certainly Ned was not as cunning as some the others but he was far from stupid. You could write a perfectly logical plot where his strategy worked and Littlefinger chose Ned’s side.
As to why everyone doesn’t squash Littlefinger he has the money and financial knowhow which are apparently scarce in the seven kingdoms. Secondly everyone else thought they could control him because of his relatively low birth and lack of martial prowess. He was both useful and apparently unthreatening which is a useful combination when the knives are out.
Honestly, I think she doesn’t see him. He’s a servant, nothing more. Therefore, he nearly doesn’t exist.
But he doesn’t have a lot of money. He’s the treasurer, not the rich kid. He’s unthreatening, and useful in the BOOKS. In the show he sure as hell seems a lot more of a guy that always seems to be behind you whenever you turn around, and he always seems to be slipping a knife back in his pocket a second before you see. `
-Joe
What, exactly, are you referring to? They both do things that he’s not aware of, but he’s not bested by either, imo.
He may not have the money but he controls it and knows how to manage it better than anyone else which makes him very useful.
Besides it’s not clear to me who has the incentive to kill him. Cersei has a lot more to worry about and her top priority is to get Ned. Ned himself needs Littlefinger to supply him with men and he would not plot a man’s death anyway. Varys perhaps has a motive but I don’t think Varys is powerful enough to kill Littlefinger on his own.
Wintertime: If we take Varys at his word when he speaks to Ned Stark in the dungeons, then he wants a peaceful, prosperous regime above all else. Had he exposed Jaime and Cersei, most likely a civil war would have broken out. I don’t see Tywin being happy at their execution and the disinheritenance of Joffrey, especially as the Bartheleons owe his family some 3 million crowns. Also, Varys can blackmail them at some future point should they become unruly or insist on a major plan that he doesn’t like.
As regards Starks’s stupidity, I think him a dumbass for telling Cersei in the first place. By the laws of the land she’s a traitor and by its mores she’s an abomination. He didn’t owe her any consideration. After that, he was a fool not to fall in with Renly’s plan and go to Littlefinger, just in the hope that Littlefinger would honor his promise to Cat.
I can see Tyrion and, for that matter, any other intelligent person occassionally getting suckered by Varys and Littlefinger. They are slicker than snot on a collander.
He’s useful when he’s just the book keeper. He’s a threat when he plays ‘dueling secrets’ with the spymaster.
-Joe
And has lots and lots of whores. Can’t forget the whores.
I so love reading the episode threads. “So Ned’s actually in an okay place…” Can’t wait for the off-with-his-head episode to see that reaction…
Yes, there are lots of Ned defenders and I was one until the last couple of episodes, especially the last – forewarning Cersei, trashing the schemes of everyone who could support him, allowing Robert to name him regent in private, … WFT, man?
I agree that Varys has more reason to get rid of Littlefinger in the show, but I don’t think he has the power. He doesn’t directly control any soldiers so he would have to maneuver someone else to do it for him. Cersei is the most likely candidate but Littlefinger is too useful to her at the moment.
Seeing the scene in the GoT series on HBO with Bran and the four wildlings (as it turns out, two wildling women and two renegade Sworn Brothers) fleeing “as far south as south will go” to get away from the White Walkers north of the Wall reminded me that I don’t remember finding out how they actually got across the Wall.
There’s a memorable scene later in the books (ASoS, Bran IV) when Bran and the two Reeds (and Hodor, of course) breach the Wall to go north via a secret tunnel under the Nightfort that leads to the mouth of a giant weirwood tree that opens when a brother of the Night’s Watch recites the oath.
Yet earlier there was mention of wildling raids on the Northlands near the Wall, so the wall is not impenetrable by more mundane means, even for parties large enough to raid and haul back booty. I guess the secret tunnel must date back to a time when the NW did its job as a border patrol in a much more airtight fashion.
Re the Wall – I’m remembering (maybe wrongly) from the first book that the Wall is deteriorating; also that there aren’t enough men to watch all of it. I don’t have any problem accepting that things are getting through, around, over, or under.
If Varys had wanted peace and prosperity above all, he could have achieved that more reliably with all the information he had a long time ago, before the houses were in a position to fight a war of attrition. If Robert had known about the incest a decade earlier, most of the houses would have stood by his side, the Lannisters would have been crushed like House Greyjoy and that coalition of houses might even have managed to bring the Martells back into the realm with a move against the Lannisters ..
.. well, alright, the last point is not very likely because Robert himself would still have been a major obstacle from Doran’s pov.
Still, most of the reasons for the later civil war could have been avoided if Varys had only had any interest to achieve that.
In AcoK, chapter 17, Tyrion POV
Tyrion thinks he’s got Petyr in his pocket with the offer of Harrenhal and the position of liege lord of the Riverlands but he doesn’t realize at all that the information he has just given Littlefinger made sure that Petyr would strike against him:
[ul]
[li]He tells Littlefinger that he will deliver to Lysa the true murderer of her husband. Littlefinger, of course, knows the truth but Tyrion’s offer is still dangerous to his plans.[/li][li]Then Tyrion offers Myrcella too - definitely a monkey wrench in Littlefinger’s plans, so this offer alone should be reason enough for the schemer to go after the imp.[/li][li]And Petyr might also have been suspicious that Tyrion will get rid of him when he isn’t useful any longer when Tyrion admits that he took Harrenhal away from Slant because he was of no use to him.[/li][/ul]
Although Tyrion knows very well that Littlefinger is one of the major schemer behind the curtain, he still hasn’t realized how deeply involved he is and how big his plans are.
And later, in ASoS, Tyrion is outmaneuvered by Littlefinger and the Tyrells, well most likely Olenna, when they plot Joffrey’s death and Tyrions well-orchestrated role as a scapegoat. Sure, he is the only one of the Lannisters who stays distrustful of Petyr and asks the necessary questions to reveal the plot – but he doesn’t follow the line of thoughts through and pays for it.
Btw, I am not sure if Littlefinger was behind Mandon Moore’s attempt to kill the imp but it makes sense. Tyrion’s assumption that it was Cersei, is also a possibility but the likelihood is diminished after Cersei’s POV chapters showed no indication that she had something to do with it, even though her brother is on her mind a couple of times.
Incidentally, after Tyrion has the conversation with Littlefinger that leads to
he talks with Varys and, once again, he doesn’t quite realize what’s really going on and thinks he has scored a third time. I think Varys plays him in every conversation they have and I have always been suspicious about the way Varys, who is not afraid to walk alone into every dark corner of King’s Landing, let the one-handed Jaime “force” him to free Tyrion and how the imp was able to compel him to take the route toward the Hand’s quarters.
Ned knew far less about Petyr and Varys than Tyrion did and he had no experience in the game that was played, so I think, his blunders were more obvious but, all in all, not more stupid than Tyrion’s.
Both schemers identified the specific weaknesses of their opponents and used them successfully.
There’s a length scene in A Storm of Swords while Jon Snow is pretending to have joined Mance Rayder where a group of wildlings climbs over the wall… three separate groups scale it, one of them falls and dies, the others lower ropes to pull the rest of the raiding party up. And this is something that has happened frequently before.