This in a nutshell, what is wrong with the UK’s Brexit. Even though 50.1% voted in favor of leaving, there is no plurality among them that wanted to leave for the same reason, under the same circumstances. Hence chaos.
“Deserved”?
I’ll quote Clint Eastwood as William Munny in Unforgiven - “Deserve’s got nothing to do with it”
Nobody is entitled to have their shows do what they want. That’s what this kind of thing is, entitlement.
Except HBO’s parent company is AT&T, so Disney would need to either acquire AT&T in its entirety or buy HBO off of it. I don’t see either happening.
The petition isn’t advocating for “art and substance over glitz.” It’s just asking for a show that “makes sense.” And what makes sense to one person doesn’t to another. In the other thread people have been arguing vehemently over whether the previous episode made sense or not, with some saying it didn’t and others buying it.
I had to Google it, never having heard of it before. This petition, right?
I started reading it, and at first, I was like, okay, obviously futile, but not too bad.
But then it kept going.
And going.
With subsections.
Christ almighty, fans. Learn to write fanfic and get on with life.
No, JJ was the only good thing about Lost.
His part of Lost was the concept, plus the first two episodes (the 2-part pilot), and then a few more episodes in season 1. Then he left, leaving the show in the hands of Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse. Toward the end of the first season when it was clear the show was a hit, those two guys were both nervous about how they were going to manage it. (According to them, in articles written at the time. I think they used words like “panic” and “oh shit.”)
Its over 600000 now… at what point is HBO going to take notice?
Obviously I dont expect the season to be remade… its just absurd, but I hope theres consequences from this petition.
Its obvious people are upset about the season.
Why should HBO even comment? The show’s done. Maybe they think about this in the planning for the prequel series that is being considered. But the petition is a way for some fans to vent. That’s all.
Besides, 600,000 is less than 5% of the viewers, which assumes that all the people that signed the petition were actually viewers to begin with, and not just me too signers.
Nothing is going to happen…
celebrities are getting in on it also MSN
Given the viewing numbers HBO has going, why would this petition bother them? If anything, it shows that viewers are really, really, really invested in the GoT world.
Well said (the entire post).
The show runners had these two Illegitimate Rulers to dispose of by the end of the series: Cersei, who’s been (as you note) consistently sadistic and cruel, and Daenerys, who’s been consistently harsh in bringing new territory under her rule, but always for a reason. No sadism for sadism’s sake with Daenerys.
(I’ll refer readers to the excellent summing up of Daenerys-related incidents that Unreconstructed Man provided in this post: https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=21644420#post21644420 )
So by season 8, the audience is eagerly anticipating a come-uppance for Cersei that matches her own malice and viciousness. And the audience is agog to find out how Daenerys will be held to account for…well, being a harsh ruler. Most seemed to expect that Dany would face consequences for being ambitious, but at the same time most expected that it would be Cersei whose downfall would be the emotional climax of the entire story.
But the show runners had fallen in love with Jaime.
They had to acknowledge, in this last season, that he had done some things that could be criticized. He pushed a child out of a high tower window, for one thing. That was recognized, briefly, in a rather underwritten scene of Jaime and the now-grown child, er, looking at each other.
But other than that, Jaime was our golden boy—he had to have a noble ending. And how could he have a noble ending while Cersei was being humiliated/torn limb-from-limb/forced to bow before (say) Dany while a dragon stood over her, licking its chops?
Answer: he couldn’t. Couldn’t have that noble ending in such circumstances. So the show runners decided to have Cersei die without much in the way of humiliation or mutilation or degradation.
But the audience really, really, really needed to see an illegitimate ruler brought low.
So Dany—who’d been harsh in judgment, but not sadistic, not malicious, not spiteful, not vindictive—suddenly became the Ultimate in vindictiveness.
(No, burning up a city full of innocents is NOT rational, no matter how many show-fans may say it is. Dany made herself the Butcher of Kings Landing. She would never be able to rule, after that. No guards she could buy could be trusted not to assassinate her; no moment away from a wakeful dragon would ever be safe for her. No one would trust her. She would not be able to rule. Her action cannot be explained as ‘what she felt she had to do to rule effectively.’
(And her action cannot be explained as ‘she snapped,’ either. The only way Dany’s actions can make sense in story terms is “instant full insanity”—again, no matter the excuses, insanity on that level had NOT been established in this story. Petulance and resentment; yes. Insanity: no. “Snapping” doesn’t look like a systematic annihilation of thousands of people, unless you are full-on insane. And the writers did not establish that Dany was full-on insane.)
The solution of the show runners to the need of the audience to see an Illegitimate Ruler brought down, was to make Dany an Instant-Monster—presumably, so that her fate in the upcoming final episode will give audiences the big hit of emotional gratification that they’ve been expecting since first seeing Cersei having her husband, and then Ned, killed.
Funny that this petition has gotten so much attention even before the last episode airs. Guess the signers have no confidence that the last episode’s writing will redeem what’s come before.
Maybe there will be a do-over in the form of graphic novels, as with other shows that didn’t end the way people hoped they would. Though they’d be ‘underground,’ as it’s doubtful that either Martin or HBO would authorize such.
Dany has been clearly been a violence-loving autocrat who believes she is ordained to rule from the beginning. She throws on some ‘good ruler’ trappings, but ultimately she’s from an incestuous family who believe and raise their children to believe that it is their right to rule because of their blood, in part because their blood lets them control dragons, and that whatever violence they commit in the path to leadership is justified because they are the right rulers. She occasionally recoils from some brutal acts (especially things like the wanton rape Dothraki enjoy), but doesn’t shy from using extreme violence to achieve her goals. She doesn’t believe that anything justifies failure to obey a ‘rightful’ ruler, she believes the Mad King should not have been deposed and threatens to kill Jamie for his role in ending that reign. And she doesn’t even have a rightful claim to the throne anymore, as Jon is actually the next in line.
And there have been signs of this since the start. S2E4 “When my dragons are grown … we will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground.” S2E6 “I will take what is mine with fire and blood.” At the end of S2, she has a vision where the Iron Throne is covered in ash and she steps towards it but never touches it. S3 E4 she executes over 100 nobles and doesn’t care that some were innocent. In season five she executes nobles in Mereen to take power, then in season six she kills all of the Dothraki leadership and in S6E6 takes over the horde with "Will you kill my enemies in their iron suits and tear down their stone houses?” In Season 7 she keeps being talked out of burning King’s Landing to the ground by Tyrion, eventually leading to the plan to bring down a wight to get Cersei to help fight the White Walkers. Which fails, leading her to doubt all of the advisors telling her not to do what she’s wanted to do ever since S2E4.
I completely disagree with the idea that the show runners turned Dany into a psychotic killer, she has been a violent, power-mad woman who believes that rule is her right and fire and blood are the way to enforce it ever since she got into a position to be more than a pawn. And this is a reason why I find a lot of the S8 complaints silly; Dany was never a good, kind person, she’s always been a violent tyrant seeking to kill anyone who would threaten her rule. She’s willing to be nice to people who accept her rule, but that’s as far as it goes.
But how does that make the murder of hundreds or thousands of civilians something the character you describe would do?
Murdering that many civilians (and destroying most of a city while doing it) are not acts that will bring her power. They are acts that will bring her assassination.
Seriously, Grey Worm will not be able to keep her alive, even if we assume he remains devoted. She is going to need a lot of armed guards who will adore her. Why would they adore her? She’s the Butcher of King’s Landing.
The fact that she is ambitious, and the fact that she is a harsh ruler, do not fit with the acts shown in episode 7. Those acts make no sense as a rational choice that will lead to power, and they make no sense as “snapping,” either. If the writers want us to think she’s full-on insane, they’ve failed to establish that in previous episodes. And if the writers want us to think she’s a rational ruler who believes that harsh measures will ensure power, then they’ve failed there, too. She’d have to be a moron to believe that slaughtering so many civilians would bring her the allegiance of those who survive.
Because murdering that many civilians will not secure her the throne. It will secure her only the assassin’s dagger (or arrow or broadsword or poison or…)
Being merciful just gets her claim jumped by Jon, even if it is against his own wishes. The secret’s out. It may not be a large chance, but seizing power through fear and brutality is the only chance she has.
I’m honestly trying to understand how what they showed her doing constitutes “seizing power.” She lands, and…what? What power does she have, other than the power to make people scream and run away, or try to kill her?
Power requires people who work for you. People who say ‘yes, your Grace,’ and then follow your instructions. So who is going to be willing to do that? Any conceivable government Dany could try to put together would be made up of people who think she’s insane or think she’s evil. So how does that work?
Grey Worm has to sleep sometime.
She can and always has been brutal, but against rivals, people in power, people who cross her. Now she’s indiscriminate, that’s a bridge the show didn’t cross very well and they needed more than two episodes to do it.
Power is power. And judging from the preview next week she has a LOTTTTT of Unsullied and screaming Dothraki and…ohhh, I don’t know…A FUCKING DRAGON.
If I were in Kings Landing and still alive, you bet your ass when she asked me to jump, …I wouldnt even say “How high”. Id just do it.
You’re asking how a character who said “When my dragons are grown … we will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground.” would possibly lay waste to armies and burn a city to the ground? Burning a city to the ground generally kills the people in it, that’s the result you expect. It appears that people are griping that ‘six seasons ago a character talked about doing a thing, we wanted to like her so didn’t think she’d do the thing, now she’s doing exactly what she said she would’.
That doesn’t seem to be supported by events in the books or real history. Her family ruled through fire and steel in the past, so it’s certainly not surprising that she would expect to do so. In the real world, Genghis Kahn routinely razed cities that resisted him to the ground, and he kept power without being assassinated (and his descendants maintained power for some time afterwards. During World War II, Churchill or Roosevelt ordered huge bombing campaigns against cities in Germany and Japan killing millions, and finally ending with nuclear bombs. Neither country offered significant post-war resistance, and neither leader was assassinated.
So I disagree, I think that a conqueror replicating the strategy of Genghis Kahn stands some chance of being just as successful as Genghis Kahn himself.
She is not just ‘ambitious’ or ‘harsh’, it has been established repeatedly that she believes she has the absolute right to rule with fire and blood. And that she sincerely believes even if she started killing people arbitrarily like the Mad King her underlings should remain be loyal to her, and that he was wronged by what happened, and she pretty clearly would like to take revenge on his behalf.
Gheghis Kahn and the United States both disagree with your claim that this is not a rational choice. People seem to forget that this series has always been based on real history where conquerors use violence, and not romantic fiction where the good guys win and the people overthrow the bad guys because no one would be scared after a city gets burnt to the ground. Razing cities that stand in your way is a time-honored tradition, and it was established as far back as season 2 that she explicitly wishes to burn cities to the ground.
I didn’t really notice this before, but why would the audience expect a come-uppace for Cersei like that? I remember fans back in season 1 making a point to tell everyone that this wasn’t a happy fairy tale where the good guys win, with the death of Sean Bean as a central part of that. In season 3 the Stark’s reward for following love instead of duty was the death of most of the family in the Red Wedding. Bad shit happening to good people and bad people not really having it any worse has been a central theme in the show since day one and runs through the books. Is the complaint here really that the S8 writers didn’t abandon a central part of the series that was listed as a draw to the series back in S1? The idea that the show should ‘hold people to account’ just doesn’t hold up.
And Danerys was always going to be a problem, once the north decided to leave the Seven Kingdoms there was obviously going to be a conflict when sweet Danerys went to take back all that she considered hers with fire and steel. That’s been a very obvious problem lurking behind all of the ‘lets come together to fight the white walkers’.