Game of Thrones Season 7 book / show open discussion thread [spoilers all]

I posted this in the show thread

And I think it’s true for the show. Someone mentioned that the books explain this, but I can’t recall what they said about the subject. What is Varys’ motivation for supporting Viserys?

Or is it just that the whole “I serve the realm” thing was made up for the show, and in the books Varys is simply a Targaryen loyalist?

Varys never served Viserys or the realm or the Targaryens. He and Illyrio want to put Aegon on the throne. Aegon is almost certainly a Blackfyre and Illyrio’s son.

This part I’m less solid on after not rereading. They sold Dany to the Dothraki with the intention that they’d both end up being killed. It was a way of being paid a ton and also getting rid of potential challengers to Aegon’s claim to the throne.

For some reason I thought Varys didn’t find out about Aegon until after Viserys was killed, and that he supported Viserys. I guess I’m just misremembering. Is supporting Aegon simply a power grab, since he’s connected to Illyrio and he’d be at a top position if Aegon took the throne?

Are there any theories as to why Illyrio gifted dragon eggs? It is mentioned that they are worth a fortune even petrified, a bit of a gamble to give it to someone you don’t support.

I think it’s unclear what Varys’ has to gain wrt Aegon. Could just be doing his friend a solid and testing his scheming abilities (love of the game), could be for his own power, could be because they raised Aegon from a child to be a good ruler (for the people, although giant civil war is a big price to pay…).

There’s a theory that Varys is also related. Shaves his head to hide the silver hair. I don’t buy it.

Not that I’m aware of, but I haven’t followed any of the theory boards in a while. It was probably expected of him to give a fairly lavish gift, and dragon eggs are appropriate for a Targaryen. He had no expectation that they would hatch.

I think it’s pretty well fleshed out that Illyrio is Aegon’s father and that he wants Aegon on the throne. If you buy that, then he cannot have supported Viserys. In my mind there were two possibilities. 1) He wanted the Dothraki to kill both of them. 2) He wanted Viserys to invade with a foreign horde and then Aegon to sweep in and be the savior from the crazy king and his savages.

He was expect to give her an expensive wedding gift, it wasn’t a gamble just something he expected to be nothing more than a thematic extravagant wedding gift.

I think you are right, Viserys was always plan A. But it wasn’t just Viserys though, it was Viserys married to Arianne Martell whom they assumed would easily wrap him around her finger.

I think Varys and Illyrio’s plan was to have Viserys (or Dany, after Viserys died) sow death and destruction in Westeros at the head of a savage Dothraki army, and Aegon (who is probably a Blackfyre pretender and not Rhaegar’s son after all) to come clean up the mess afterwards and be hailed as the savior of Westeros. In other words, he wanted Dany/Viserys to both weaken Westeros in preparation for his chosen king, and to boost Aegon/Young Griff’s PR in comparison.

To a certain extent, he is still rooting “for the people” like in the show, as Griff/Aegon has been groomed from birth to be a wise, capable leader rather who inspires people, rather than a revenge-obsessed conqueror who thinks they’re owed a continent because of who their daddy was.

An expensive wedding gift that would buy a navy to carry the Dothraki over to Westeros on, after Dany/Viserys talked Khal Drogo into it.

Speaking of talking him into it, I’ve also been reading theories about how Khal Drogo might have been wrapped up in a “prince that was promised” prophecy of his own, like Rhaegar apparently was. “The Stallion Who Mounts The World”. Thereby explaining what he was doing unmarried at 30, and settling for a poor foreign white woman when any other Khal would have had five strong Dothraki Khaleesis and an army of children by that age. And the “Dany eating the horse heart” wasn’t just some formality all pregnant Khaleesis go through, but Drogo specifically arranged it with the Dosh Khaleen to verify that his purchase of Dany was the right one, and that it was her child that would fulfill the prophecy.

Which makes the whole Rhaego died in the womb thing a little relieving. Dany and Drogo were literally rooting for a horse to fuck the planet.

Varys wasn’t involved with the Arianne Martell plot.

It has been a while since reading the books, and probably too quickly so some details didn’t stick. I’m confused by some of the comments on the show thread. I read and watch too much, I guess, and have not kept track of important details.

Rickon is alive? I thought his body was brought in by one of Ramsay’s guys, either before or after Ramsay killed his wilding nanny.

The horns - wasn’t there something found at the wall, and another has been mentioned being used on Pyke during elections, and either/both had to do with dragons?

Rickon is dead, Ramsay shot him with an arrow in order to bait Jon.

There are no horns in the show. There are two (three?) in the books.

Thanks - I thought Rickon was dead, but unless I misread, some over on the show thread talk like he is still around, and will have a reunion with the rest of the Starks, so I was confused.

And Frey.

The baby dragons called to Dany and lent her strength when she was fading fast. They were probably a forgotten treasure decorating a guest room in Illyrio’s palace. But Magic they willed themselves to go to her.

I do think Illyrio felt quite guilty about selling Dany though.

Wait, whut?!? I must have skipped that page. What makes you think this? Could Illyrio be a Targ?

Maybe that word has no gender in high Dothraki. :wink:

Now THERE was a huge reveal that nobody has mentioned!

Dragonbinder is maybe found by Euron.

The Horn of Joramun/Winter maybe will destroy the wall, but doesn’t appear to have anything to do with dragons. Mance claims that he found it and it is burned. Some people believe that Ghost found the horn along with dragonglass.

The thought is Blackfyre, i.e. descended from a Targaryen bastard. I missed the clues that he might be his son - in this theory is it assumed that fAegon is completely unaware of his true parentage, and genuinely believes he was switched (and Connington does too?)

Speaking of mixing up show and book… I thought the fact of Casterly Rock being out of gold was book-only, but research tells me it’s actually show-only. Which, if Dany’s forces do end up taking Casterly Rock (which may be off the table given what happened to their Ironborn) could prove vastly disappointing.

I think the post(s) in question were simply saying that characters should think Bran is alive, since Rickon turned up alive (and not killed by Theon as originally thought, he killed the two random peasant boys instead).

Not a great house - those are the ones who have holdings roughly analogous to the original seven kingdoms, so - Stark (North), Lannister (Westerlands), Baratheon (Stormlands/Crownlands), Arryn (the Vale), Tully (Riverlands), Tyrell (the Reach), Martell (Dorne).

I think the Lannisters, Baratheons and the Martells have been darwined. With the other families it is hard to tell if uncles or cousins are around. Who is left of the Tyrells? Weren’t a bunch of them in the Sept that got blowed up?

Illyrio’s wife was most likely a Blackfyre. There’s a very large amount of circumstantial evidence, kinda like R+L=J, that I think is very convincing in totality.

Google FAegon or fake Aegon and pages should pop up. The main ones are that it’s said specifically that the male line of the Blackfyres died out, implying the female one lived on, Illyrio’s wife had the Targ coloring, Illyrio wanted to talk to Aegon about a sword (probably Blackfyre), Aegon is leading the Golden Company. The Golden Company which had never once broke a contract until they joined him, saying “some contracts are written in ink, some in blood.” The Golden Company was founded by Blackfyre exiles and Westerosi loyalists. The “Mummer’s dragon” warning.

I’m sure there’s a westeros.org thread that ties it in a neat bow.