I might be wrong, but from reading your whole post i get the impression that meet may be something of a euphemism. Did you go to this church to meet its members and socialize with them over tea and pie? Or did you go to protest against the gay churchmembers, like the people in the article linked to by the OP? I infer the latter from your post. If i’m wrong, then your usage is simply rather ambiguous; if i’m right, then it’s downright disingenuous.
It could be like “Waiting for Godot”, but verruh verruh SEXY.
Svt4him, I think the point of the OP is to illustrate that even as many religious groups bash homosexuals in their thoughts and actions, and in legislation and the fight against other legislation, that they gay Christians in the OP had to balls to offer a meal to those who had come to that church purely to rally against them. I have YET to see any evidence of a group of gay Christians going to protest a straight (well, more reasonably, a gaybashing) church/group of christians and see the latter give the former food.
You mention “when we use to go and meet with the homosexual church in Cedar Springs”…what was the purpose of those visits?
Prove it:) Demonstrate how the Bible clearly says both that God doesn’t care about/look at outward acts and that He only looks at the heart, both of which you are not only intimating but outwardly stating.
Your example of the bank robber also equates a homosexual to a bank robber; that aspect of the analogy makes it really ugly and inept. What is there about being homosexual that serves to alienate a person from being close to God/a Christian/living a life close to Christ/etc.?
You mentioned someone getting shoved around by a gay guy in your most recent post. Here is a thread for your perusal on some of the things that have been done to GLBT people … some by Christians, some by others. Very much worth a read IMO.
I talked to Flam_X last night on AIM and my impression is that the wording of her first post was really bad. She agreed with my assessment thereof, which is one reason I decided not to attack her here. I think more than anything else she has the same sort of attitude to gay Christians that a lot of people have: “But they’re gay…how can they be christian?” and it’s not addressed in her church specifically what it means to be gay so much as they intimate all sorts of bad things. So I’d encourage her to repost here explaining in more detail what she meant and in the interest of fighting ignorance I’d ask that the rest of y’all wait to pass judgment/flame until she’s restated her position (and you can bet I’ll be trying to help her do this because I think she may be more confused now than H4e was when she first got here).
If I wasn’t asked to explain what I meant, I wouldn’t have. And no, no reaction is needed, nor is one looked for. You seem to have taken a defensive position against what you think I’m saying, even though you have very limited knowledge of my beliefs. When I read a post like ‘another one of them with a 4 in their name’ I have to laugh, because it shows me that tollerance is only tollerant of those who agree with it, and is very steriotypical, although it is the one thing preached against the most.
So, sorry for whatever I did to offend you, and if there is any specific thing I can explain further to you, you certainly are free to IM me. I’ll try not to hammer on any point, but if asked to explain what I mean, I will have to be a bit repetative.
Arnold, with all due respect…
Is this just friendly advice? If so, thank you but please don’t presume to know my thoughts beyond what I actually post. I was not and am not “upset” by Svt4Him or his/her posts. I actually barely even considered his/her posts. I responded to a completely different poster. Even if I were upset, I hardly think riffing on his/her screen name constitutes “the full-fledged Pit treatment.”
If this is something more than friendly advice, i.e. some sort of semi-official or official warning, I would appreciate an email to that effect for purposes of clarification.
Oh, sorry, that was a reply to Mockingbird.
To answer the question, was I down in cedar springs telling the homosexuals they were going to hell because they were gay? Nope. As a matter of fact I don’t think I once mentioned Homosexual or gay unless I was asked. For instance, one guy I was talking to for about 20 min looked at me and said “I want to punch you.” When I asked why he said because I was there telling them all homosexuals go to hell. My response to him was the first time the word homosexual was used when when he said that I said all homosexuals go to hell, and that I hadn’t mentioned it once before that.
Now to say I said a bank robber is the same as a homosexual is wrong. If I implied that, I’m sorry.
Where in the Bible does it say God judges the heart? How many references do you want? ‘Man looks on the outside, God looks at the heart.’ ‘Our works are like rags’. ‘There are none good, no not one’. Let me give you an example of this, and since it’s extra-Biblical, take it with a grain of salt. Rick Joyner was given a vision, and in it he say a man preaching to a crowd of people, and another man who looked like a street person walk up to a cat, almost kick it, then walk away. He felt God ask him who was doing more for God. Rick said the preacher, and God told him he was wrong. He said the preacher has been given a lot, and he uses some of what he was given to draw crouds of people. But he treats his wife and kids bad, and uses very little of what he was given to do ‘good things’. The other man only had a little, and it took everything he had to not kick that cat. So to say God looks at the works is wrong, cause not kicking a cat isn’t a huge work.
As for the who’s better, I didn’t start a thread saying Straight Christians are better than Gay Christians because of this issue, so I fail to see how my using the example clearly saying that it doesn’t make someone more of a Christian to do or not do something. But I shall go read the link.
Couple of questions. First, why were you there? Just for a random gather, or what? Second, are you able to say for sure that he was talking specifically about you (you personally, for purposes of this discussion, didn’t say “all gays go to hell”, but it is possible someone else did) for sure?
Given the tenacity of the people in this thread, I think you might have a hard-enough time proving that even one scriptural reference says, for sure 100% and totally, what belief you casually ascribe to it in your previous post:) Hell, be at least glad we’re not requiring you to prove that the Bible is the inspired word of God:D
Re: bank robber, your analogy put a bank robber and a homosexual on the same plane if only for the purposes of that analogy. However, for purposes of that analogy you equated the bank robber to the homosexual inasmuch as they are not doing God’s work/following Christ/etc. Since that appears not to be what you meant, please elaborate on why you think it might be difficult for a gay person to be christian/live a life according to God’s will/etc:)
Hey imapunha,
I read the link you gave me, and can also add some stories to it. That is really sad. I would hope that any time I saw someone getting bashed, I’d fight for them.
As for the scripture, I don’t have to prove anything. I’d have a hard time proving how 1=.9~, doesn’t mean anything. But I have studied apologetics, so I’m also not ignorant of the tests applied to historical documents, nor am I unfamiliar with the ‘common’ misconceptions of the Bible.
As for what I think about Homosexual Christians, I will never enter into that debate. There is so much emotions attached, and so many people have attacked that that one or the other will be automatically defensive, and you can not communicate like that. Also not knowing my motives will make you assume when I say something that I’m automatically implying something else, and perception plays a big roll in discussing this. Do I think I’m better than any homosexual I’ve ever met? Not even a bit.
And again, the bank robber was in reference to the fact that, and I quote, “Gay Christians are better than Straight Christians”. Now was the guy who said he was going to punch me talking to me? That’s a bit of a far reaching question I think. Of course he was talking to me, about me. When he said “You said” …and the discussion didn’t end there. Why were we there? For the same reason we were in Deep Elm, or the Center, or The Salvation Army. Go do what we were doing any other place, and our motives aren’t questioned.
I’m glad to hear that. Something to think about, pray and meditate about: the incessant efforts of some conservative Christians to condemn gay people and their fight for fair treatment have sometimes led to people doing this sort of gay bashing. Note that I am not accusing you of any such thing, but identifying it as something that some people do. See the link in my Pit thread for an excellent example.
Following the principle that if you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem, my stance has been to support gay people. I’m not telling you what to do; the Holy Spirit will guide you. I’m asking you to consider prayerfully what your own stance ought to be.
IMHO, you should stand for what you believe is right, trying hard to be understood, and to reach past defenses. But I respect that not everybody is called to that.
Otto was going for an over the top, provocative Pit thread title. And, as we agreed, the MCC was responding in the manner that Christ taught.
Applying your “bank robber” metaphor, I’d have strong reason to question your motives if you were hanging out in the alley behind my bank at 1:00 AM. It’s a very simple question, which you’re evading: why did “a group of you” go to “a homosexual church in Cedar Springs”? What was your motivation? What did you hope to acomplish? What did you do that led to the confrontation in which a gay man threatened you? I’m a vocal Christian, and I’ve been in the presence of openly gay people, and never once has any of them offered me violence (well, except for the bad pun at Jonathan Chance’s party! ;))
I venture to guess that you sought to witness to them. If I am correct, please say so; if not, correct me. And if this be the case, may I ask the nature of the witness?
You are absolutely correct, but when you say to them, I’d also add that we weren’t just witnessing to them, but pretty much to everyone. How did we do it? Well, we took a big red cross and stood at the corner, and talked to anyone who came to us. Now what did I preach on? Well, depends on the person. If they’re proud, I preached law, if humble, grace. Who am I to tell the difference you may think? Well, if someone doesn’t think they’re a sinner, therefore they don’t need to be saved, that would be a proud person. Then I’d preach from the ten commandments to show them they need to be saved. If someone is feeling bad for what they’ve done, I’d share God’s love. Some don’t care either way, or some just needed someone to talk to, then I’d listen, and wouldn’t share anything. And again, I’ve heard some stories that still make me sad to think about.
As far as my stance on what I believe, I have a firm stance, and some things I know to be true. But people don’t really care how much you know until they know how much you care may be apropos here. Maybe I shouldn’t say I’d never speak up, more that I’d rarely do it in a setting like this where every motive is questioned. As far as praying about what the Bible says, if God says do not lie, I don’t have to pray to understand that God has said that, as it won’t change no matter how much I pray. Then the focus is again on “Has God really said that?”.
Uh-huh. You just happened to end up on the corner where the gay Christian congregation was to do your witnessing. Total coincidence; after all, you were “witnessing…pretty much to everyone.”
I find the concept of witnessing to those already professedly Christian interesting. Either you’re quite comfortable wasting what little time you believe we have left in this life convincing people who are already convinced, or you don’t believe that those who believe themselves Christian are Christian. One shows an appalling lack of compassion for all of those poor non-Christians who haven’t heard the word yet…why aren’t you in backbush Africa running a mission? The other shows an appalling arrogance in that you deem yourself capable of judging another person’s inner spirit with NO acquaintance whatsoever.
The OP made no effort to generalize beyond the particular instance he was discussing. In this case, yes, the Gay Christians were better than the Straight ones.
Furthermore, he used the title as a rhetorical device, not as a statement of fact. He acknowledges in the OP that he understands “that not all straight Christians are like these nutjobs.” This indicates that he is specifically not painting all Christians with a broad-brush.
If you don’t understand that, perhaps the reading level of this board is too high for you.
Do you know that much about Cedar Springs to know that every person we see on the street corner holding a cross is Christian? That kind of shows me an appalling arrogance as well. And if you’re so concerned with the African’s, why are you hear, or it just that you’re too busy judging my inner spirit with NO acquaintance whatsoever?
Too high for my comprehension? Wow, if all else fails, attack character.
oops, my mistake, I meant to say that every person we talk to on the street corner while holding the cross was a Christian. We ran into Christians all over the place, so do we stop sharing because there are some Christians there… who won’t be sharing cause we were there? Hmmm.
I assumed from:
that you were there “to…meet with the homosexual church.” Church implies Christianity. So whether you accosted everyone or not, I assumed that you were targetting the gay church.
As for me going to Africa, I’m not Christian. Call me cold, but it doesn’t impinge on my conscience at all that there are people somewhere in the world that haven’t heard about a possibly fictional god and heaven. I’m best described as Agnostic Apathetic: I don’t know and I don’t care.
And I’d say your inner spirit was adequately revealed for the purposes of this thread by your equivalence of homosexuality with felony theft and armed robbery.
Incidentally, is that “homosexual church” in Cedar Springs the Metropolitan Community Church where former right-wing religious ally and current gay Christian activist Mel White is the dean of the cathedral? It should be noted that his treatment upon coming out by the religious leaders for whom he’d worked and whom he considered friends was appallingly unChristlike…
Nonsense. If you put something forward as fact, the burden of proof rests squarely on you to prove it if challenged:)
Slight hijack here, but easily-enough proven. The proof is in the fact that there is no number in between .9999999 repeating and 1.
So then show your intelligence by proving (to within a reasonable certainty … I’m not requiring a Brandeis Dossier here:D) that the Bible says what you assert:)
If we refrain from that I think it can be done. I’m interested in your opinion, so attacking you is a poor way of getting you to tell me what you actually think.
What do you think about gay Christians?
In the example of the analogy, you were implying (despite the fact that you later said you meant no implication) something. If you set forth and say “I do not mean X here” if you believe that it could be implied, then that will be given equal weight (by me, and by Polycarp most likely as well, to name two) with the rest of your post. I will post in response as I see your argument:)
I disagree. In English (as opposed to Latin or French, to cite two languages), it is impossible to distinguish between the singular and plural “you” (as the word is used in both cases) absent some sort of plural-indicating modifier. “You are” can mean you alone or you and your friend Bob. As such I do not believe my question was reaching in any sense. And since you did not (IMO) provide adequate context for a reader to see that the gay man in question was clearly talking about you and you alone, I thought it a justified question:)
While it could certainly be the case that he was talking specifically about you (it is not possible to know for sure based on evidence available to me), it seems also possible that others in your group had indicated some sort of anti-gay bias and he meant it as a general “you”. It is further possible that, assuming that anti-gay bias was present, he assumed (and not entirely faultily, I add) you would be like-minded. This is why I asked the question.
As you have not yet stated (or I have missed where you did) your purpose in being there, this does not answer the question:)
This argument also implies, whether or not you intended it, that anyone who is not Christian is proud (not in the “Look ma I won a prize” sense but in the sense you indicated). I take issue with this argument.
This implies, if not directly stating, that your belief, no matter how deeply-held, that they need to be saved, is fact. That is your opinion, and talking to them solely because you think they need to be saved is a waste of both your time and that person’s time.
GOOD! Too many times I (and others, unfortunately) have seen people witness who only care about the “RIGHTEOUS ANGER OF OUR ALMIGHTY LORD JESUS CHRIST” … without sharing His love. I cannot comprehend how anyone could truly come to know God without being told of/shown His love, and those who adhere more to the “this is what rules he has” aspect of the Bible than “this is how much God loves you” aspect miss something really fucking big, IMO:) Note that I specifically exclude you from this group, in case you believed otherwise:)
Care to list a few?
The issue you will come into on this board is that indicating that you have perfect knowledge of what the Bible says about anything is unacceptable to a good deal of people on this board, including many of the Christians.
As Whoopi Goldberg quipped as Sister Mary Clarence in “Sister Act”, “Alma, check your battery!” gobear offered you violets. They went with your shirt;)
Since Svt4him has since indicated that he did not intend to do so, and since his responses to Poly and myself have been respectful, I think it might be appropriate to, if nothing else, lurk rather than castigate (even in a veiled manner), if the latter is your preference. Not trying to tell you what to do, of course, but I see, and I think Poly sees, more ability to think in Svt4him than in many other people we have both debated with on this MB on this subject:)
Where can I read this story? It’d be good to have as a mental reference for future discussion (about anything of this sort … religion, sexuality, “love the sinner/hate the sin” etc).
punha, This is Mel’s JusticeNet website. The full story is told in his book Stranger at the Gate: To Be Gay and Christian in America.
I’ll step down the attacks on Svt’s character. But the whole “visit” thing still sounds incredibly evasive and incomplete…
And here is Jerry Falwell’s response to one of Mel’s “Open Letters”.
I was thinking “Waiting for Godot. The Sequel.”