Gender roles in a small business and overnight trips

[doreen]

He can absolutely be friends with Julie. But since he has never made arrangements to meet an individual male friend at a bar or for coffee * , I’d get annoyed if he suddenly made these arrangements with an individual female friend.

*it’s always been as part of some other activity or with a group that generally includes me if any women are included

[MeanJoe]

If travel was conveyed as a part of the job responsibilities and the new paralegal accepted the position then honestly bringing this family issue into the workplace is very inappropriate on her part. If she is unable to meet the requirements of the position without bringing relationship baggage into the workplace then frankly… find a new paralegal. I’m sorry if that sounds harsh but this is a career choice for her and you have no obligation to accommodate her relationship problems. Deal with it and be available for occasional business travel or offer your resignation and good luck.

FYI - I travel 25-30 weeks a year on business. In the last 10 years I have been with my wife she has never even questioned the sex of my colleagues who I spent significant amounts of time out of town on business with. My colleagues are both male and female and she is aware of this. Even if she did have issues, for me to make my boss aware of this would be a major error on my part. Not because my boss would be unsupportive but because it would demonstrate a tremendous lack of judgement on my part to bring this issue to his attention.

[glee]

@UltraVires

The previous male paralegal would come with me on these trips, have a few beverages at the local watering hole and come back to the hotel/motel. It started with separate rooms, but we got close enough (not in a sexual way) so that as long as we had two beds, then one room was fine. Drive back the next day, no hassle.

Previous posters have offered advice, but I’d like to say how I think the problem arose.

Let me summarise your quote above in HR terms or even a legal case:

• the boss of a small company paid for an employee to come with him on a road trip. The boss first paid for drinks, then took the employee to a shared hotel room overnight.

I’m sure you were innocent, but surely you can see how this looks.
What on earth would be your defence if the male employee had accused you of sexual harassment?

[Ashtura]

Imho, you’re totally fine if you have two separate rooms, although I don’t think I’d be drinking buddies with her.

The spouses are being unreasonable, but I can’t say I don’t get it. You’re either trustworthy or you’re not. Plenty of people screw around right under their spouses noses. But that’s really a personal issue. One you’ll need to weigh in.

Do you trust yourself? If not, go with the male.

[Telemark]

@Ashtura

Do you trust yourself? If not, go with the male.

No, that just punishes female employees for the boss’s inability to keep it in his pants. A better option would be to send someone else if the boss can’t do the job.

[ZipperJJ]

@MeanJoe

If travel was conveyed as a part of the job responsibilities and the new paralegal accepted the position then honestly bringing this family issue into the workplace is very inappropriate on her part. If she is unable to meet the requirements of the position without bringing relationship baggage into the workplace then frankly… find a new paralegal. I’m sorry if that sounds harsh but this is a career choice for her and you have no obligation to accommodate her relationship problems. Deal with it and be available for occasional business travel or offer your resignation and good luck.

In the case of the OP, it’s not just the paralegal’s husband who has a problem with it, it’s the OP’s wife too.

If the paralegal’s husband didn’t have a problem with it but the OP’s (boss’s) wife did, should she also resign?

[puzzlegal]

@SanVito

…If someone’s going to have an affair, a business trip isn’t the problem.

This
Also

@Nava

Yes, your spouses are being unreasonable. Every team with which I’ve worked “on location” for the last 18 years has been mixed gender (often I’m the only female). Should I be out of a job because somebody’s wife is insecure, or should he stop traveling for the same reason? And it’s not as if people need to be away from home to either screw or screw up: if either of you was going to, you wouldn’t need to travel.

I’ve been on business trips with guys (I’m a straight woman) and really, I never thought about it. Heck, on my husband’s second-to-last business trip he let a woman share his hotel room (separate bed) because she didn’t have funds for a room, and otherwise she’d have had to commute 1.5 hours. He told me. I endorsed his generosity.

I’m not sure what to do about the jealous spouses. Is there any way you could bring a third person along? I think that would help. I also think the drinks are unnecessary, and you shouldn’t do that. At least, assuming that would make a difference.

@EscAlaMike

…OP and his previous male employee sharing a hotel room is not in the least bit scandalous either for spouses or casual observers…

You know, you would think so, but I have a gay friend who had sex in a lot of weird and uncomfortable places when he was younger because he thought it would be impossibly scandalous for him to share a hotel room with a guy. I suggested they could have rented two rooms, and just not told anyone that they only used one of them, and he still thought the risk of being “caught” with another guy would have been too great.

[Nava]

@UltraVires

If I would have a beer with a male coworker on a business trip and enjoy the camaraderie and build our understanding with each other, but refrain from doing so with a female coworker, then that puts her at a disadvantage. Perhaps the disadvantage is slight, perhaps it is great. I know I personally would not take intentional punitive action, but perhaps I would do so unconsciously.

One of the things that two of my four worst bosses had in common was expecting employees to share their taste in entertainment (another was freaked out that none of us shared her religious views, the fourth viewed underlings as rhyming with droppings). My good ones would propose outings (I’m including dinner in this; some of us would rather have a couple tangerines than a platter), be open to other people proposing alternatives or to someone proposing an outing first and have zero problem if anybody didn’t want to go. Be careful with that.

[UltraVires]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

…right. So there are three solutions:

1. Insist on having beers with your subordinates regardless of their sex; or
2. Have beers only with male subordinates; or
3. Have a new professional rule of not drinking alone with subordinates regardless of their sex.

1 or 3 is appropriate, but it sounds like 1 might lead to trouble. So I’m suggesting 3, not 2.

Even if I promised that there would be no drinking, why would the spouses believe that when I already promised no fucking?

@doreen

I’m wondering how much of this is related to the beer and how much is related to the lack of there being a perfect analogy . Using myself and my husband as an example, I would absolutely be upset if my husband made arrangements to leave our house one evening and meet Julie the neighbor for a beer. I’d even get upset if he made those arrangements to meet her for coffee. However, if he and Julie bowled in a league together, I wouldn’t get annoyed if they had a beer in the bar afterwards. If he just went to the local bar and ran into Julie, I wouldn’t care if that sat together and talked. Just like I wouldn’t care if they sat in the breakroom and had coffee together or left the office and had lunch together. In my mind, what makes the difference is whether he specifically left the house to see Julie or whether he and Julie happened to be in the same place for another reason and simply had a meal, coffee or drinks together. For some people, it would be the beer that was the problem and there wouldn’t be an issue if you and the paralegal were in a diner having the same conversation over coffee and pie, just as long as it wasn’t a bar and beer.

Oh no. If I said that she and I were going out for a prayer meeting and then coffee and pie afterwards, that would also be inappropriate as it could lead to adultery!

@glee

Previous posters have offered advice, but I’d like to say how I think the problem arose.

Let me summarise your quote above in HR terms or even a legal case:

• the boss of a small company paid for an employee to come with him on a road trip. The boss first paid for drinks, then took the employee to a shared hotel room overnight.

I’m sure you were innocent, but surely you can see how this looks.
What on earth would be your defence if the male employee had accused you of sexual harassment?

I don’t even know how to respond to this except to say that my state is 10 years behind middle America which is 10 years behind California and New York. Around here two guys staying in a hotel room together doesn’t get you a second look.

I did it with my father when he was alive and I was a young adult. My cousin flys up once a year and we have a 4 day weekend together in Pittsburgh each year to watch the Pirates and also share a room. I spend nights with guys at their hunting cabins and in tents with them. One time when I was younger I slept in a tent with my brother in law when the temps dropped to 15 degrees fahrenheit outside and I was so damned cold I held him harder than I’ve ever held a woman.

This is definitely not a gay thing, but I don’t want the thread to go that way. I don’t know, but I can guarantee that my wife would not worry about that. If I was a female attorney, my paralegal’s husband would not care if she went on overnight trips. I mean, our spouses know our sexual orientation so they can cross off some worries in their minds.

If he accused me of sexual harassment? I never thought about it before you said it. The disadvantages I guess of growing up where homosexuality was never openly practiced.