Generally speaking, how many masculine groups/cutulres are there?

[AHunter3]

Hi, Luciano! I suppose if I’m going to post in your thread, I should show you the courtesy of replying to some of your own posts.

I’m coming at things from a different experience: I never wanted to be masculine or to be perceived as masculine. Darren Garrison, above, thinks we have factors in common, though, so maybe you would find it useful to compare and contrast…

@Luciano700

I am not implying you should overly masculine, nor should you strip your masculine identity completely off. If so how are you going to be confident? How are you gonna stand up for yourself? How are you gonna be a leader to your community?

I always thought of the girls as the confident ones, confident in a way that wasn’t all defensive and puffed up and shot through with the vulnerability of things that they gotta prove. As for standing up for one’s self, one thing in our society that will require a person to stand up for themselves is to be feminine, or sissy, if you’re male. Especially if you’re also nonviolent. I never saw the masculine boys as standing up for themselves, I saw them as going along with the crowd and needing the approval of the other boys.

I don’t know about leading. I have to admit I don’t have any useful notes on how to be a leader.

You need a healthy balance of both masculine[confidence, leading, assertiveness] and feminine traits[caring, compassion, tolerance]

Never ever have I gone for the feminist label, not even once.

And I embraced feminism right from the first time I heard of it, back when they still called it “women’s liberation”. The idea that it was wrong to have one set of standards that the boys and men were supposed to be measured against and a different set of standards for the girls, that just made so much sense to me, and having different standards was so obviously unfair.

@Luciano700

And yes I struggle with my masculinity, but unlike most guys who barely notice… I put a good effort to get overly masculine. Cuss, throw punches into the air and walls, try to challenge people into something[a race for instance], listen to the most hardcore of metal and hip hop songs[An increasing rarity] and yeah. I know I am aware of my masculinity oh and just try to embrace my heritage more.

I’ve outgrown a lot of my negative attitude towards the set of characteristics you’re talking about, the ones called “masculine”, and moved more towards a tolerant “live and let live, different strokes for different folks” viewpoint. As long as I don’t have to be that way (or be measured against that as a standard), be who you are, as long as you don’t punch holes in my walls, try to get me into a fight, or make a lot of disruptive belligerent noise that disturbs my peace.

But is this, in fact, who you are or the standards you wish to aspire to? As opposed to being some set of external set of standards you’ve been brought up to believe you’re “supposed to” aspire to whether they fit you or not? Without wanting to put words into his mouth, I think that’s what Darren Garrrison and other people in this thread have been saying, that if that’s what you’re doing, you should toss that bunch of external standards into the wastebasket and set your own standards and quit trying to live up to someone else’s ideas of how you should be a man and all that stuff.

So to me, that’s the big IF: whether you find fulfillment in these standards or they’re someone else’s measuring stick that makes you feel inferior or inadequate to whatever extent you don’t rate highly on it.

[Luciano700]

Also add to my identity crisis, coming from a Latin America background even when I admit and acknowledge that I am not brown as a piece of wood, I still get thrown the Hispanic label a lot. It confuses me either way.

@Telemark

Great example of what? A complete non-sequitur?

I don’t think you understand. The post-civil war generation for example worried a lot that the industrial revolution generation wasn’t as masculine as the generation that fought in the civil war. All sorts of jingoistic policies were advocated and acted upon as a result, often to the detriment of the country and to other countries.

So my point is, it’s important to look at these claims with a historical perspective and to realize that all this stuff has been thought and said

[Telemark]

@Luciano700

I don’t think you understand. The post-civil war generation for example worried a lot that the industrial revolution generation wasn’t as masculine as the generation that fought in the civil war. All sorts of jingoistic policies were advocated and acted upon as a result, often to the detriment of the country and to other countries.

I didn’t understand because you didn’t explain or support your statement. Care to do so now? What policies are you referring to and how do you tie them to these motivations?

BTW, the Industrial Revolution was basically over before the US Civil War. The so called Second Industrial Revolution took place after the Civil War and led to the greatest period of economic growth in US history. It pays to be precise when making your case.

[Darren_Garrison]

@Luciano700

I don’t think you understand. The post-civil war generation for example worried a lot that the industrial revolution generation wasn’t as masculine as the generation that fought in the civil war.

The industrial revolution started 100 years before the US Civil war.

Want a real quote from an American in a time of war about the later generations? Try this one.

[Luciano700]

@Telemark

I didn’t understand because you didn’t explain or support your statement. Care to do so now? What policies are you referring to and how do you tie them to these motivations?

BTW, the Industrial Revolution was basically over before the US Civil War. The so called Second Industrial Revolution took place after the Civil War and led to the greatest period of economic growth in US history. It pays to be precise when making your case.

IMO, from what I’ve learned The Industrial Revolution produced a clear delineation between ‘home’ and ‘work.’ There were many social changes that occurred: worker’s rights, work health and safety, enforced schooling, and a need for childcare.Gender roles were clearly modified.

[Telemark]

@Luciano700

IMO, from what I’ve learned The Industrial Revolution produced a clear delineation between ‘home’ and ‘work.’ There were many social changes that occurred: worker’s rights, work health and safety, enforced schooling, and a need for childcare.Gender roles were clearly modified.

And? No one is arguing against that general statement, but that’s not what you claimed. Just to remind you:

The post-civil war generation for example worried a lot that the industrial revolution generation wasn’t as masculine as the generation that fought in the civil war. All sorts of jingoistic policies were advocated and acted upon as a result, often to the detriment of the country and to other countries.

So, where are the citations for your claims? And what is the greater picture other than many things changed as a result of major social upheaval?

[Luciano700]

@Telemark

And? No one is arguing against that general statement, but that’s not what you claimed. Just to remind you:

So, where are the citations for your claims? And what is the greater picture other than many things changed as a result of major social upheaval?

I was adding to my statement

What kind of link do you want in particular though? Cause I don’t want a reply back saying it’s false or doesn’t prove my point

[Luciano700]

Family Life and Women in the Industrial Revolution - Law Essays

[Darren_Garrison]

@Luciano700

https://lawaspect.com/industrial-revolution-impact-family-life-women/

Interesting site. Focused on law, has a fake chat pop-up with “Sarah” saying a non-sequitur “Hi there, would you like to get such a paper?” Are they trying to give off subliminal clues that the lawyers are Jewish, since of course Jews make the best lawyers? In an earlier version of the pop-up, did Sarah offer a potato latke?

[Luciano700]

@Darren_Garrison

Interesting site. Focused on law, has a fake chat pop-up with “Sarah” saying a non-sequitur “Hi there, would you like to get such a paper?” Are they trying to give off subliminal clues that the lawyers are Jewish, since of course Jews make the best lawyers? In an earlier version of the pop-up, did Sarah offer a potato latke?

Yeah

[QuickSilver]

@Luciano700

IMO, from what I’ve learned The Industrial Revolution produced a clear delineation between ‘home’ and ‘work.’ There were many social changes that occurred: worker’s rights, work health and safety, enforced schooling, and a need for childcare.Gender roles were clearly modified.

So. Fucking. What.

The only constant in history and society is CHANGE. Things fucking change. Usually, but not always, for the better (more egalitarian, more enlightened, more informed, etc…)

What are you arguing for with regards to “masculinity” and “pussification”?? You want things back the way they were before you were born? Some idealized time you imagine in your head when Men Were Men and sheep were nervous? What the fuck does a (ostensibly) 16 year kid with identity and self esteem issues want with a time in history where he’d have been ridiculed and made to feel like an outcast? You think some hairy, barrel chested manly men would have taken you under their wing to teach you how to weld and lay stones? You think they’d be sensitive to you being from another culture and speaking the local language poorly?

What is it that you’re after exactly? What’s your argument? What are you nostalgic for? Show us a point in history where you’d have been better off than you are now and explain why you believe you’d have been a better man during the industrial revolution, or as a peasant in the middle ages, or as a Roman soldier at the Battle of Carthage, or whenever the fuck you think would have been an ideal time to be a masculine male.

[Luciano700]

@QuickSilver

So. Fucking. What.

The only constant in history and society is CHANGE. Things fucking change. Usually, but not always, for the better (more egalitarian, more enlightened, more informed, etc…)

What are you arguing for with regards to “masculinity” and “pussification”?? You want things back the way they were before you were born? Some idealized time you imagine in your head when Men Were Men and sheep were nervous? What the fuck does a (ostensibly) 16 year kid with identity and self esteem issues want with a time in history where he’d have been ridiculed and made to feel like an outcast? You think some hairy, barrel chested manly men would have taken you under their wing to teach you how to weld and lay stones? You think they’d be sensitive to you being from another culture and speaking the local language poorly?

What is it that you’re after exactly? What’s your argument? What are you nostalgic for? Show us a point in history where you’d have been better off than you are now and explain why you believe you’d have been a better man during the industrial revolution, or as a peasant in the middle ages, or as a Roman soldier at the Battle of Carthage, or whenever the fuck you think would have been an ideal time to be a masculine male.

Woah woah woah chill homie you’re taking the context a bit too far and serious.
I just want to learn how to be more not manly, just less nervous and more reactionary of a person. That is all, now I do realize history does repeat itself in the case of social changes. Compare that to the transgender scandal/movement going on. I am not saying transgenders are immoral, and I could care less if people wanted more gender divergence. But it does cause a bit of confusion.

[QuickSilver]

@Luciano700

Woah woah woah chill homie you’re taking the context a bit too far and serious.

What “context”? What are you even talking about?

If you want to say absurd and nonsensical things all day long without having to explain your reasoning then perhaps this is not the best forum for your steams of consciousness.

[Luciano700]

@QuickSilver

What “context”? What are you even talking about?

If you want to say absurd and nonsensical things all day long without having to explain your reasoning then perhaps this is not the best forum for your steams of consciousness.

I don’t think you know this, but here comes nothing.
I put so SO much effort into my critical thinking, but at the same hand I kind of just get derailed off by my learning disability. I try to work on it and been putting more effort into it, but I just just don’t have the proper concentration in some stances. So, yeah I am sorry if I sound bleeping vague, childish and ignorant with some statements. I really need to cut off internet time and read more books so I can get more interested in particular topics. Anyways, now cut me some slack and stop expecting me so much man.
Just help me become less insecure of a person, that’s all.

[QuickSilver]

@Luciano700

I just want to learn how to be more not manly, just less nervous and more reactionary of a person. That is all, now I do realize history does repeat itself in the case of social changes. Compare that to the transgender scandal/movement going on. I am not saying transgenders are immoral, and I could care less if people wanted more gender divergence. But it does cause a bit of confusion.

All you’ve done so far is blame external events and the freedoms of expression by others for your own negative feelings and reactions. You’ve externalized the blame for your own perceived (real or imagined) shortcomings. Focus on that with your therapist and think carefully about why the next time you want to opine on the subject of “manliness” or whatever else.

[Luciano700]

@QuickSilver

All you’ve done so far is blame external events and the freedoms of expression by others for your own negative feelings and reactions. You’ve externalized the blame for your own perceived (real or imagined) shortcomings. Focus on that with your therapist and think carefully about why the next time you want to opine on the subject of “manliness” or whatever else.

Not manliness, masculine traits.
Hey look, is just me looking through the lens of social issues and politics. I think I should take a break from sociology and politics. I will try to cut it off.

[QuickSilver]

@Luciano700

I don’t think you know this, but here comes nothing.
I put so SO much effort into my critical thinking, but at the same hand I kind of just get derailed off by my learning disability. I try to work on it and been putting more effort into it, but I just just don’t have the proper concentration in some stances. So, yeah I am sorry if I sound bleeping vague, childish and ignorant with some statements. I really need to cut off internet time and read more books so I can get more interested in particular topics. Anyways, now cut me some slack and stop expecting me so much man.
Just help me become less insecure of a person, that’s all.

I’m sorry. That must be difficult for you. Your therapist will be able to offer you better coping skills than some random strangers on the internet. Best piece of advice I can offer is that you resist the temptation of externalizing your feelings of insecurity and aggression against others who, like you, just want to get on in the world without hurting anyone.

[AHunter3]

@Luciano700

Not manliness, masculine traits.
Hey look, is just me looking through the lens of social issues and politics. I think I should take a break from sociology and politics. I will try to cut it off.

I thought that was the other thread…

[Luciano700]

@AHunter3

I thought that was the other thread…

Well is supposedly[“supposedly”] a mental illness as in the case that it’s a disorder. And I ain’t got nothing against transgender people. Damn, can’t believe that reached like 50+ replies.

[Luciano700]

@QuickSilver

I’m sorry. That must be difficult for you. Your therapist will be able to offer you better coping skills than some random strangers on the internet. Best piece of advice I can offer is that you resist the temptation of externalizing your feelings of insecurity and aggression against others who, like you, just want to get on in the world without hurting anyone.

Absolutely!