Another example of fundies being more than a little weird: the billboards that have been springing up around town lately. Here’s some of the ones I remember:
“Will the road you’re on get you to my place?”-God
Every time I go past that one, I think to myself, “Gee, God, I don’t know. Do you live on Bardstown Road?”
“The Big Bang? You’ve got to be kidding.”-God
And, the one I hate the most:
“What part of ‘Thou shalt not’ didn’t you understand?”-God
I’m not much of a practicing Christian these days, but I was raised as a Lutheran. If I remember my dogma right, humans are supposed to be born into original sin, and can’t do much about it. In other words, no matter how hard we try, we’re fallible and will sin anyway (hence, the need for salvation). By suggesting that we could avoid sinning entirely if we just got off our asses and went to their church, this billboard actually contradicts part of the religion it’s espousing.
These signs make nobody but those who already believe this stuff happy. They just piss off everybody else.
This is from a page or two back, but I can’t resist:
“Hey, Charlie, those Christians want us to go back again to check out the campsite with all the naked women offering us beer - should we go?”
As for complaints that ECs are just believers carrying out their mission, it seems to me that the people complained of are more concerned with being part of an exclusive club that is superior to all others, and many “conversion” attempts really just serve as reminders to the “saved” that they are so much better than everyone else. When folks convey this attitude, I think it is reasonable for the targets to be miffed.
I also take great issue with anyone who thinks sharing their beliefs with me allows them to: 1) touch me without my permission - this is battery, people, and don’t be surprised to have your hand smacked away; 2) enter my property or stay without permission - also illegal, not to mention extremely rude.
I’m on your side here. If you will go back and read my posts, you’ll note that I too have a problem with people who feel compelled to make public displays of their faith. I think that it’s rude and disrespectful to those of us that may not want to participate, even indirectly, in their religious moment. This is one of the reasons I fully support the recent court cases that prohibit prayers at school events such as football games. As I mentioned before, Jesus told his followers to say their prayers in private and to not make a show of it in public. So I think we’re on the same page here.
I just wanted to point out this quote:
(emphasis mine)
You seemed to be taking a swipe at the motivations of these people for taking this trip. I don’t think you allowed yourself the possibility that maybe they did take this trip to help people and make a difference. Instead, because of their immediate actions and your own preconceived notions of Fundies, you implied that they had wasted money that should have gone to a better cause just so they could take a vacation.
As for this comment, regarding t-shirts for charitable events:
Well, I don’t typically (and I emphasize typically) see groups of Christians in they type of situation you described doing this either. Are you saying that these people were accosting other passengers, loudly proclaiming their good deeds, and encouraging others to do the same? Or were they just celebrating their faith among themselves in a very public way without any regard to others around them that might not have wanted to hear it? Seems like two distinct situations to me.
Here’s an analogy, weak though it may be: I don’t much care for golf. I think it’s a stupid game and, more often than not, the people I encounter that play it are usually the kind of people I don’t want to be around. On occassion, I’ve found myself in situations - work meetings, training sessions, airplanes - where the people around me are golfers, easily identified by the golf shirts they are wearing, and they have private conversations (yet loud enough for everyone around them to hear) where they go on and on about how wonderful golf is, how much fun it is to play, how great Tiger Woods is, blah, blah, blah.
You know what I do? I grin and bear it. If they want to celebrate their devotion to this game, go right ahead. And I don’t take this celebration as an attempt to convert me as a golfer. Having to hear about it may annoy me, but I don’t think it would annoy me enough to start a Pit thread demanding that these mind-melded golfing zealots get off my plane.
And please explain this comment to me, because I’m not sure I understand:
I’m not really clear on where I’ve stereotyped anyone in this thread. If I have, please point it out to me and I will try to explain myself, and recant my remarks if necessary.
I think you would be surprised to learn that your thoughts on the behavior of these people are very much in line with mine, as I’ve stated several times in this thread. I just took exception with your view that these people were somehow not doing good deeds simply because they were traveling together and wearing matching shirts.
[quote]
The thought that whatever money they spent on this trip could have been better spent - maybe by helping people and making a difference - crossed my mind. But, you know, maybe everyone there do contribute money and time for charities befitting someone who follows Christ, and everyone deserves a vacation now and then.
[/quote
(emphasis mine)
I do believe this should answer what you seem to think I said, but in reality said AND JUST AS QUICKLY RETRACTED!
Any questions?
Yer pal,
Satan
[sub]
I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Four months, two days, 14 hours, 21 minutes and 46 seconds.
4983 cigarettes not smoked, saving $622.99.
Life saved: 2 weeks, 3 days, 7 hours, 15 minutes.[/sub]
ATHENA HAD AN EROTIC DREAM ABOUT ME!
There’s a major difference between the two. Usually, the t-shirts for a 10K run for cancer research aren’t free if you run. You have to buy them, and generally the folks who made them will donate the profits.
It’s doubtful that a church group, however huge the church might be, will make enough t-shirts to turn a profit. So basically, instead of spending the money to make the t-shirts, the church folks could have built an extra house. That’s why you don’t usually see church shirts commemorating a charitable act. It’s a matter of finances.
This is just wild assumption on my part, but since most SDMB posters tend to be rational, logical, and highly intelligent (as befits a follower of Cecil’s wisdom), then wouldn’t the dearth of “believers” on this board indicate that the aforementioned properties are inverse in the majority of said believers?
Then again, maybe they’re just scared shitless of getting flamed by Satan.
Hey, I’m a Christian, though I’m not a “fundie”. I feel Christians have been misrepresented in this board. I have no problem with people insulting fundies, because they take God’s message and get rid of what they want, and they give Christians in general a really bad name. The vast majority of Christians don’t shove beliefs down anyone’s throat, nor do they continuously brag about their salvation. It would probably surprise you to know how many Christians you run across in your everyday life that don’t force beliefs on you. However, I do share my beliefs when I feel it is beneficial–I’ve converted several friends when they come to me with problems to talk about. It is these times when people are looking for guidance in their life that Christ is perfect for them. However, if they don’t like what they’re hearing, I leave them alone instead of belittling their beliefs. I just don’t want all Christians to have a bad name on this board, that’s all.
I don’t think anyone is trying to condemn Christianity in general here. I’m with Satan on this, it’s not about being Christian, it’s about being loud and annoying.
I’m all for being public about who you are and what you believe in. We’ve got a right to do that. I get annoyed when anyone (EC’s, Trekkies, Followers of the Great Goddess Skateboarda, etc) get in my face or otherwise make it difficult to go about my life in peace.
I wear my pride rings, I occasionally wear my litte-fat-goddess pendant, I have even from time to time had a smart-ass bumper sticker or two. And I’m always willing to chat with people about how reality works in the Bear Lady’s world, but I try to do this in the most unobtrusive way I can.
Being proud of your beliefs doesn’t mean making them so loudly obvious that they’re distracting to everyone around you.
But that’s just me, I believe above all in my right to go blissfully about my life unbothered s’long as I’m letting everyone else do the same.
I’m not sure I follow your logic here. Correct me if I’m wrong (and I have no doubt that you will), but you seem to be saying that if the t-shirt was for a non-religious event, it’s OK because the wearer must purchase it and the manufacturer will donate the proceeds. But if it’s for a church group, it’s not OK because the wearer must get it for free and therefore there are no profits to donate to the cause. What if the church people paid for the shirts at a price that exceeded the cost of making them, and the proceeds were donated to the cause? Would this be OK? Of course, I guess they would be required to show financial statements on demand to prove that the transaction did indeed transpire this way. I mean, we can’t just assume that they did, now can we? Afterall, they’re those uppity Christians. You can’t just trust them or anything.
I think it’s a big leap to go from seeing a group of people wearing matching shirts to thinking, as you put it in an earlier post:
Who are you to question the strength and depth of these people’s convictions based on a one-time observation of their clothing in the Charlotte airport? I hesitate to say this, because I know that you and Brian are like the King and Queen of the SDMB prom and all, but this one quote from you and Brian’s unnecessary swipe at their purpose for travelling (and feeble attempt at retracting it) says more about your prejudices and intolerance than anything printed on this group’s shirts may say about theirs.
Again, I do agree that Brian’s annoyance at being subjected to this group’s religious experience is justified. It’s rude and disrespectful to those that don’t want to particpate, even indirectly. But it certainly doesn’t translate to mean that these people aren’t “half as Christian” as they purport to be.
This is kinda off the topic of the latest posts in this thread, but here goes.
Favorite Fundi: Peter Popoff. Who continues to prove that, “There is a sucker born every minute”. Now he is selling miracle cure water on late night TV and probably raking in millions doing it.
I personally love it when a “Believer” comes to the door. I usually get in a great discussion about his religion vs. mine (usually made up on the spot from my days playing D&D as a teen).
ME: I believe in the Old Norse religion, Odin. Have you heard of him?
JF(jesus freak):No. No, I haven’t.
Me: A great old guy. Did you know that he went to the pool of wisdom and as a fee for drinking from the pool he had to pluck out his own eye! He did this so that he could better prepare for Armageddon.
JF: Well, my God actually sent his only son to the cross to forgive our sins. Now Jesus lives in heaven and intercedes for us with God.
Me: Hmmm…Odin lost his eye forever. Big sacrifice on your God’s part considering he wasn’t tacked up there himself. All Odin expects of me is that I have killed all my enemies before I arrive at his gates. The more the better. You are my friend aren’t you, Christian? Christian…where are you going? (the scurrying of feet is heard as JF runs for his soul).
One of my personal theories on God.
Me arriving at Heaven on judgement day.
God: So, waddya think of the bible and all that?
Me: Well, I have quite a few questions about it. You call the Hebrews your people and saved them from the Egyptians. Why didn’t you have the Hebrews just convert the Egyptians to your worship and have done with it?
God: Good point. Anything else?
Me: Yeah, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?.. (Discussion goes on for eternity in-between boughts of Ping Pong, etc.)
JF arriving at Heaven on judgement day.
God: So, waddya think of the bible and all that?
JF: I have been you most devoted follower for my entire life, Lord! I have gone to church twice a day. I have prayed everytime I do anything. I have thanked you for everything that happened, did happen, or might happen. I have converted the heathen in your name. I have condemned those that would sin in your name. I have done everything that you have asked to the letter all in your name and now all I ask is to worship you throughout eternity.
God: (exasperated) Yes, yes, but what did you think about it all?
JF: (confusion) I did not think, Lord. I had faith!
God: (As the JF slowly dissolves into oblivion) I created the universe the way that I did so that intelligent life would form with the minimal intervention on my part. I wanted to see what that life would make of itself apart from me. In other words, I was bored and tired of talking to myself throughout eternity. If I wanted creatures to blindly follow me I would have just created sheep and left rest out! Poor fool, the bible was a test to weed out those who had brains from those who were unable to think for themselves.
That quote you cited wasn’t about the people on the plane. It was about the hypothetical folks who went off to go give charity, then spent money on t-shirts tooting their own horns. So the second part of your post really doesn’t apply. You can agree that people who waste money to make sure everyone knows that they donated money to charity aren’t exactly as Christian as they think they are, eh?
As for the first part…well, did you READ my post? I said that I doubt a church would be able to print up enough shirts to sell to turn a profit. If you’ve ever printed anything before, you’ll know that most of the cost is in making the plates for the design. The actual shirts themselves and the printing process are relatively inexpensive, comparatively. If you want to understand this process further, check out any wedding invitation website, and see the difference in price between printing 25 and 50 of them. The same principle applies there.
So let’s see. Your average-sized church has what, 500, 600 members? Maybe 400 of those actually show up on a regular basis (and I’m probably being generous with that). Out of those 400, maybe 250 are not elderly or children. Out of those 250, maybe 100 are able, for whatever reason, to take the trip to build houses for the homeless (again I’m being generous). Out of those 100, maybe 50 people would WANT to buy a shirt commemorating the event, even if the money would go to charity. And at the prices those shirts would go for in order to recoup the costs of making them, NOBODY would want one. That’s the practical reason for why you never see t-shirts for church groups that show the world that the wearer of said t-shirt did a charitable act. The other reason, of course, is because anyone who knows their Bible worth half a shit knows that doing so would look remarkably Pharisaic.
Now, as for the whole fiscal benefit of making t-shirts for a run for cancer, I looked up “Race for the Cure” on Google, just to see what I could come up with. Seems like every city and town of a decent size does one of these things. Here’s some info on Pittsburgh’s.
If they sold t-shirts, it would be MUCH easier for them to charge less, considering that the overall price per shirt is cheaper for a quantity that large. That way, they could actually HAVE profits to donate, see?
In short, I am not anti-Christian. Some of the kindest and dearest people I know are Christians, including half of my family, as well as a couple who practically saved my life. I’m against Christians who act like assholes about it. To me, that’s decidedly something that Jesus WOULDN’T do.
What I’m amazed at is that nobody seems to have figured out that the original post was not directed against Fundamental Evangelical Christianity but against Public Rudeness. Which is intolerable in anybody, and particularly in people who think they have a reason to consider themselves better than anybody else (e.g., “Fundy bigots,” as opposed to thoughtful conservative Christians of an inerrantist school of thought, whom both the original poster and I am acquainted with several of).
I’d like to add one final comment to that train of thought:
Anybody who proceeds to divide the world into “we” and “they” and then lumps “them” together on the basis of the behavior of some of “them” needs to do some serious rethinking of his position. Regardless of what he may believe, or not.
Well, no I can’t agree. Not unless we agree that people who ran the “Race for the Cure” wasted the $10 or whatever on their shirts instead of donating it directly to the cause. I just assume that the purpose of the shirt is to promote the charity to possibly get others involved. If Landover Baptist Church is building homes for the homeless, and they want to wear shirts to promote awareness of their house building program and possibly get others to join them building more houses, then I say more power to them.
I’ve been involved in organizations that had shirts made to promote their group, cause, event, etc. and not once was the cost so exorbitant as to cause us to lose money. I would think that any responsible organization that was trying to help a cause would analyze the cost benefit of producing shirts, and if the cost caused them to lose more than the shirts gained for them, then they wouldn’t spend that money. And there is always the possibility that the business that printed the shirts may have donated the cost of making them to the cause.
But look, we’re just arguing hypotheticals here. All I’m saying is that it’s a big assumption to make broad statements about someone’s convictions based on their clothing. And Brian’s implication was that these people were wasting money just to have a good time, not “helping people or making a difference”. Even his allowance that these people might “contribute money and time for charities” and that “everyone deserves a vacation now and then” still assumes that these people were not necessarily out doing good deeds at that particular time. I say there’s no way to know exactly what they were spending their money on just by observing their antics and clothing in an airport gate area.
If we are going to expect people like this to be tolerant and non-judgmental, I think that the least we can do is offer the same thing back.
At least we can agree on something. I’ve often said that if Jesus were to come back today, he would be embarrassed by the things people do in his name.
Well, I just did a decent analysis of the fiscal end of a church producing shirts to commemorate a charitable act, and as you can see, the end result is basically “not frickin’ likely.” And since you originally said that the trip could have been for charity, and my response was to tell you that it’s not as likely as you thought it was, I think that I’ve proven my point. Assuming that those people were not taking that particular trip to donate their time and energy to charity was reasonable. Especially since he saw the shirts, and you didn’t.
And it’s funny that you accuse us of arguing hypotheticals now, when the thing you said that got me into this argument in the first place was basically, “Well, they COULD have been doing…” Isn’t that a hypothetical situation to begin with?
SIGH For the umpteenth time this thread, Christians AS A WHOLE are NOT being ripped here, but those who do some rude and even hurtful things in the name of their religion! I’ve the impression that you and some other posters have either not read this thread very closely or a whole lot of people flunked reading comprehention in grade school.
To Uzi…
NICE post! Good question regarding the Hebrews and Egyptians. My question would have to do more with the Holocaust. Sure, man’s inhumanity to man is nothing new, but that was some pretty large-scale shit and it was directed mainly at the chosen ones. What gives?
Speaking of hurtful Fundies and the Holocaust, there’s an Orthodox rabbi in Isreal (sorry, can’t remember his name) who made the news (well, at least the BBC World News on PBS) for some REAL nasty remarks he made last Saturday night on TV. Besides ripping Barak a new one, he also stated that those who suffered through the Holocaust were reincarnations of sinners from previous lives and went through Hitler’s meat grinder to “attone for past sins.” In other words, he feels they basically what they got! Nice guy, huh? That’s the sort of shit threads like this are for.
You say that it’s not likely that this group was travelling on a good deed mission, because of the t-shirts. You said:
But I don’t see the logic here. First, Brian didn’t say that the shirts touted their charitable deed, so will you concede that this particular group didn’t waste their charitable funds on shirts touting their charitable deeds?
What he did say, however, was that the shirts identified their ministry in some way. But why would that disqualify them from having done anything good, as you assert in this statement:
Just because they were wearing shirts that identified their group, why would you leap to the conclusion that they hadn’t taken the opportunity on this trip to “make a difference”?
Then you said:
If this had been a different group - say a group of gay activists - and they were wearing commemorative shirts while returning from some Gay Rights activity, would you also assume that this group would not have done anything else on this trip that helped others and made a difference? If not, then why do you make the same assumption about these Fundies?
My completely uneducated guess is also that they were coming back from one of those revival meetings. But that, in and of itself, doesn’t preclude the possibility that they might have done some good deed in the process.
By the way, thank you for engaging me in this discussion. I’m much more of a lurker around here than I am a poster. It’s only occasionally that I feel compelled to argue my position this strongly.
