I absolutely agree with the above statement. Jesus healed the sick, raised the dead, fed the 5000, long before He started talking to them about salvation. This is another area where we evangelicals have really dropped the ball.
(first try at using this quote function - slap me if it don’t work right)
Fine. We call ourselves people who are not evangelical Christians. Not heathens. Tell me the word heathen doesn’t have an air of nastiness about it.
We’re not judging God… we’re judging certain groups of evangelical Christians (referred to as ECs from this point forward).
As a completely separate question, I must wonder why shouldn’t we judge God by His people, if these are indeed the people he has chosen to represent Him - but that’s another question for another day.
Maybe that’s true… I could argue that one either way. I guess the point is that so many people experience the same mean-spiritedness from ECs that we must question whether they are really following a spiritual path that is any better than ours.
Obviously, nobody is calling these ECs pompous merely because of their belief. The pompous part comes in when they make bumper stickers proclaiming that they’ll go to heaven and we’ll go to hell. Gives the whole thing that “ha-ha, I’m better than you” feel. I’m pretty sure that’s not what the man upstairs was going for.
Please see my response to point #1.
Well, the ECs in a story mentioned earlier that would not let the other passenger use the bathroom, for starters, were being incredibly intolerant.
From your perspective, where does it cease to be merely talking and begin to be harassment?
Pat on the back, BillyBoy! Exactly what I was trying to say, though I have no idea how to use the quote function, and don’t bold enough to offer the “smack me if it don’t work” promise. Congrats on a well-spoken reply!
spiritfood
We’re not ripping Christians per se. The folks being complained of here are those who do doubious things in the name of religion. When the folks on this thread use the word “Fundie,” they are refering to those who look down their noses - and may be openly hostile to - people who don’t pray the way they do.
Its one thing to say Catholosism or Paganism or whatever “-ism” isn’t your cup of tea, but quite another to harrass someone for it, which many of the aforementioned “Fundies” have done. If you’d read the posts again, this time noting the specific behavior being complained about, you’ll see the problem isn’t the message but rather the messanger’s actions. Props to whoever wrote that they’re down with God and Jesus, but take issue with some of those who claim to be followers. And props to whoever mentioned Jesus never said it was cool to be an asshole.
Patty
Au contraire, Drain Bead and Satan.
As I mentioned before, I’ve been on a few church trips in my time. And also, as I mentioned, the purpose of those trips was sometimes to both help others and to help ourselves. Sometimes we wore matching t-shirts. You know, to help promote bonding, to make us feel like we were part of something, to help us focus on what our purpose for being there was. Wearing matching t-shirts shouldn’t negate any of the good we might have accomplished.
I didn’t gather from the OP that the t-shirts either commemorated a particular event or touted a good deed. Instead, I assumed that the shirts simply identified the ministry, church, organization, or whatever that these people belonged to. I know that this was the case in my experience. Our shirts simply said something along the lines of “Landover Baptist Church Youth Group” with some graphic along with it. Nothing more.
Even if their shirts did say “I built 5 houses for the homeless with Landover Baptist Church and all I got was this lousy t-shirt”, how is that any different than wearing “I ran a 10K to raise money for cancer research and here’s the shirt to prove it” t-shirt? I mean, couldn’t the money that went into making those shirts have been better spent on actual cancer research? Is this t-shirt standard one that you wish to apply to all charitable events, or only ones sponsored by religious organization?
And what’s so bad about a group of Christians traveling to attend a revival? You know, sometimes people get worn down in the course of their daily grind, even Christians. And no matter how much they may want to do something good, it becomes difficult to just carry on. The nice thing about a revival, or church camp, or other religious gatherings, is that it sometimes can recharge you and motivate you to get out there and do something good. The $5 that each of these people paid for that shirt may have been a small price to pay if it motivated them to go out and help others.
It appears to me that Christians are being held to a different standard than the general population. You don’t seem to want to allow them to participate in the types of functions or activities that, if it were any other group, you wouldn’t give a second thought to. I have no doubt that these people would have been given anything more than a passing glance or a few puzzled looks if they were sporting Spock ears and spouting Klingon dogma (or whatever it is that Trekkies spout). And this, I feel, reveals some level of intolerance towards fundamentalist Christians.
It is also why I wavered in posting to this thread at all. It appears that this issue has to be black or white, anti-Fundie or pro-Fundie, with no willingness to see both sides of the thing. You’re either one of us or one of them. No middle ground allowed. Heathen good, Fundie bad. Fundie good, Heathen bad. And on and on and on.
Full disclosure: From about age 15-18, I was very active in my church youth group. I was at the church every time the doors were open. If there was something happening, I was there. I participated in a lot of fun stuff, as well as contributed a few good deeds. I made some very good friends and generally stayed out of the kinds of trouble that teenagers have a tendency to get into. But when I went to college, I started to really question my beliefs and discovered that spirituality is what you make of it, not what someone else makes for you. I didn’t need to be a part of an organized church to be spiritual anymore. I haven’t been to a church service (other than a funeral or wedding) in about 16 years. But I certainly understand the appeal that attending church has for some people. If being a part of that helps motivate someone to make the world - their own personal world or the world at large - a better place, more power to them.
I’ve been there, done that, and have the t-shirt to prove it! 
Although I’ve been following this thread, it may be a faux pas to chime in at this late date. Nonetheless, I will. What irritates me most about the in-your-face variety of zealot (of any religion) is an attitude that can best be summed up by a quote, who’s originator I’ve long forgotten.
“Those who are most interested in sharing their religious views with you are, in turn, the least interested in you sharing your religious views with them”.
And I can’t resist going off topic…
Did anyone else notice how Satan and Drain Bead posted almost identical responses within minutes of each other? That shit has got to fucking stop. It made me smile and gladdened my heart, and from what I understand, that is not permitted in The Pit.
[insert Pit-appropriate ending of your choice]
Shaky Jake
I am not one of those who is willing to go back and forth several times saying the same stuff. I’m all for inteligent dialogue, but I could start spinning my wheels and saying the same things over and over, and nobody wants that. So I’ll just reply to BillyBoy’s points, and then leave it at that.
BillyBoy, you make some good points that I can’t argue with. Certainly, keeping someone from going to the bathroom is not Christian, and I don’t condone it.
As for the “I’m going to heaven and you’re not” attitude that is supposedly behind the “rapture” bumper stickers, I think you are misreading the attitude behind those things. We believe that one must accept Jesus to get into heaven. Period. You are certainly entitled to not believe that. But any believer who agrees with me about that one essential point of salvation, if they are interested in following the intructions of Jesus as laid out in the Bible, would want others to receive salvation also.
Several people posting in this thread seem to take it as an insult of some sort. It’s not like we’re trying to keep anybody out of heaven. It’s not like we’re saying that people can’t go based on things which are out of their control. (A ridiculous example of this would be if someone said that only white people could go to Heaven.) You have a choice. You have heard that we believe that Jesus said that anyone who chooses Him gets to go to heaven, and anyone who hears this and does not choose Him does not get to go to Heaven. It sounds harsh and illogical, but that’s what I believe, and I do at least have some Scripture to back me up. I could spend all my time wondering why the Christian concept of salvation doesn’t make sense, but I have don’t have to understand it, jsut accept it.
I am sorry that Christians have taken this simple truth and screwed it up while trying to spread the word, but that doesn’t make it any less true. And we are just as entitled to believe it as you are entitled to not believe it. You might be averse to hearing someone publicly speak about their Christian faith in, say, an airplane, but we have to hear the religion of secularism a lot more hours during the week, so I think you’re getting the long end of the stick on that one.
Finally, I aksed that question about being intolerant because I see nothing but intolerance for my beliefs running all the way through all 3 pages of this thread. And it’s OK, this is America, and you are allowed to say those things, but I think it’s somewhat inconsistent to accuse us of being intolerant of other religious belief systems when you guys, by and large, are just as intolerant by the things you have said about us.
In short: I do not approve of the behavior of many of the Christians you have mentioned, and I am just as disgusted with it. But I do not apologize for the message that Jesus is the only way.
Of course, none of my previous post is to say that Satan didn’t have a right to be annoyed by these people’s public expressions of their faith. Again, I refer you to what Jesus said about public praying in Matthew 6:5-5.
Advertising for the group who organized the mission trip.
Souvenirs.
A sense of community.
I can’t think of a mission trip where the Reverend Mrs. Meyer DIDN’T come back with a t-shirt actually.
Cordially,
Myron M. Meyer
The Man Who
Yes, I know, and many others on this post know, that the only reason that Fundamentalist Christians preach to people and try to convert you is because they believe that everyone does, in fact, have a right to go to Heaven. I don’t deny that, and I think many will agree. Now that it’s been stated that Fundamentalist motives are good, it’s the method that’s the problem. By coming on rather, forcefully, towards non-believers, all you do is drive them away, and the only people who listen are your comerades. Therefore, you find yourself “preaching to the choir.” I think I sum it all up in a quote from my friend Kevin:
“If God’s the kind of person who cares whether you you follow the Bible to the letter, then I don’t think I wanna spend eternity with him.”
I doubt highly that I am misreading anything. Believing that “Jesus is the only way” does not require you to buy a bumper sticker like the one mentioned. Wanting to share your faith with others does not require this either. The only reason that I can think of for buying a bumper sticker like this is so you can feel as though you are superior to those around you. If you have one of these stickers on you car, and its for an entirely different reason, please speak up and share the motivation behind it.
Having a strong belief system is one thing. I got no problem with that - believe whatever the heck you want. I don’t care which Scriptures you do or don’t have or what this book or that book says. Believe what you want. Believe it. Go ahead. Really. I mean it.
One of the most prominent attacks made by ECs is that someone is taking issue with their right to believe as they choose. Hopefully I have driven home the fact that I don’t care what ANYONE does or doesn’t believe about religion, and won’t have to make this point again.
If you feel that you have other religions imposed on you for many hours during the week, then you have a point. I’d be interested in hearing more about how people were imposing their beliefs on you - that would actually be a really interesting conversation.
If you’re just talking about having to hear someone else’s religious views, then the very freedom of speech law that many ECs abuse when accosting random passers-by requires that you suck it up and move on like the rest of us.
(See, there it is again)
It’s not your BELIEFS, but the aforementioned EC groups’ ACTIONS that we’re having trouble tolerating.
Nor should you. Was someone asking you to?
Joined today after lurking for awhile, but I couldn’t resist this topic. Not to stray from the more serious tone this thread is taking, but here goes…
My senior year of college I was living in an apartment off-campus. One evening I was sitting at home, minding my own business, when there was a knock on my door. I answer the door, and it’s a married couple and their 12 year old son. The dad said they were doing a survey for their church, would I mind answering a few questions. I agreed (duh). The first few questions were just general stuff - how do I feel about war, abortion, your usual everyday moral questions. The last question was the zinger. “If you died today and were standing at the gates of Heaven, what would you say if God asked you why you should be let in?” I was no angel in college, so I jokingly said He probably wouldn’t let me in.
That was their cue to move in. The pushed past me into my apartment and made themselves comfortable in my living room, and started preaching to me. I was just sitting there, wondering “what the hell just happened here?” At different points in their speech, the son would get up on cue and hand me a different little piece of literature to illustrate their point. Finally, the woman asks me if I would accept Jesus as my personal savior. Being as though I was raised Catholic by a religious mother, I thought I had already done that, so I just said yes (didn’t want to find out what would happen if I said no). This little family went absolutely ape-shit. The woman dropped to her knees on my living room floor and launched into this mega-prayer thanking the Lord and crying with happiness. I was sitting there trying my hardest not to laugh out loud. My first thought was how funny the whole thing was, then “Am I going to hell because I am laughing while this woman is praying for me?” Well, I apparently made their day. As they were leaving, the still-teary-eyed woman hugged me and said she would be praying for me.
I got a card from the woman a few days later (she apparently dropped it off in my mailbox herself). They also informed the pastor and the youth group that they had a live one, because a few days later I was walking from the parking lot to my building, arms laden with grocery bags, when the pastor of the church and two young guys showed up. They offered to help me carry my groceries into my house and started trying to take them from me, as I am holding on for dear life to my bags and not-so-politely declining their offer. They followed me into my building and were trying to come into my house, but I didn’t go in until they went away. They were trying to get me to promise to come to church and youth group and all that stuff, but I said no, which must have confused the hell out of them, because after all, I had just been saved last week!
Another few days go by, they seemed to have backed off. I came home from class one afternoon to find my roommate happily munching on a plate of brownies. Through her mouthful of brownies, she mentioned that some creepy people from some church brought some brownies over for me, and would I please call their youth group director about something? Who knows what brainwashing crap they put in those brownies?
I have no idea how they got my phone number (maybe my last name on the mailbox), but they started calling me next. They enlisted anyone and everyone from the church, trying to get me to come to all their little functions. Polite "No"s and evasion tactics didn’t seem to work, so I stepped it up a bit and started telling them off. Unfortunately, there is no great story-ending climax here, just that they finally left me alone. I have to give them credit for sheer persistence though. Part of the reason I wasn’t a total ass to them in the first place was because my best friend’s grandparents live in the same town we went to school in and are members of that church. Her grandma fed us and did our laundry, so I didn’t want to get on her bad side by booby trapping my yard for in case the youth group stopped by 
However, when I did finally tell her grandparents what happened, her grandpa had a word with the pastor about their “recruiting” techniques. Ha.
I have no problem with God and Jesus (tho they may have forgotten who I am), but that kind of stuff really burns me…
Annie-Xmas,
Yeah, I just C+P’ed the song. The last verse sounded off, but I couldn’t remember the way it really went.
That has got to be the funniest thing I’ve heard in a while.
(I’m easily amused.)
Dang, alibey, you beat me to it. I was gonna mention that one.
BTW, don’t think I’m trying to make any associations or jump to conclusions or anything, and I just happened to notice this, but is it just me, or do all the “believers” who have posted on this thread have a post count of less than 20?
Also, I see this is Hedgehog’s first post. Way to make a debut. Good first impression. Welcome to the SDMB. (On the other hand, you may be just some regular poster who changed their name. In which case, nevermind.)
**
The shirts, which I did not read very closely, had dates on them - as in July 5-8 or something like that.
I say these shirts (I don’t recall talking about the shirts YOU wore) were about the trip/retreat they all took. I saw them, you did not.
**
I would have thought the ame thing, and I might have even posted a thread about it complaining if they all started loudly telling everyone who was there how wonderful it was when they raised this money and how everyone else should raise this money.
Gee… That doesn’t happen much though, does it…
**
Read much?
I specifically said as much in the OP that you find so inflamtory. The line “everyone deserves a vacation” ring a bell? :rolleyes:
**
Please do point out to little ol’ Christian-bashing me exactly what other groups of the general population act in the manner I described in the OP?
Then get back to me.
**
If they annoyed me, then yes, I would have given them considerably mroe than a passing glance. And if they annoyed me and acted in a manner which was obviously trying to get me to want to be one of them, not only did they fail, but I would have been even more annoyed.
Now, any chance of coming up with an analogy that might have a slight chance of being realisticly possible?
**
No, it’s intollerance towards assholes. They happen to be Fundies.
**
I saw their side perfectly. They annoyed me on the fucking plane. If they saw MY side of things, they wouldn’t be annoying me on the fucking plane, now would they?
**
Fundie who annoys me on the fucking plane bad. Fundie who does not annoy me on the fucking plane good. Heathen who does not annoy me on the fucking plane good. Heathen who dannoys me on the fucking plane bad.
Also, I dig the usage here of the word “heathen.” Nowhere in my post did I say that people who were not annoying me were all atheists. Who is stereotyping now?
I’m sure there were many spiritual peopel on that plane, and some of them Christians. They simply did not annoy me.
So, I pointed out the SPECIFIC people who annoyed me and as a result drew my ire. Whereas YOU made a blanket statement here (nobody brought up non-believers until you just did, and in an unflattering way at that!), so I do believe that you are the stereotyping person here, not I.
Yer pal,
Satan
[sub]I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Four months, two days, 36 minutes and 0 seconds.
4961 cigarettes not smoked, saving $620.13.
Life saved: 2 weeks, 3 days, 5 hours, 25 minutes.[/sub]
ATHENA HAD AN EROTIC DREAM ABOUT ME!!
Wow, and I complain about the e-mails that my cousin keeps sending me to ‘save my soul’.
This will be long but I still find it amusing. Back in the late 80’s, I did a lot of back packing in Tibet. Back then, foreigners could not go to many places, and one place that could be visited was the Tibetan town of Ma’erkang in Sichuan province. At the time, this town probably was visited by no more than a couple of dozen westerners a year.
So, I get there and immediately run into a group of about 10 fundies wearing Tibetan clothes and walking down the street. None of them spoke Tibetan, only one of them spoke extremely basic Chinese. They were of course fellow Americans and within 30 seconds of meeting them, I was informed “they were on a mission from god to convert the poor Tibetans, and by the way have you been saved brother?”
I beat a quick retreat but couldn’t help running into them occaisionally as there was only one hotel that took foreigners (my room was surrounded by theirs), and it was a pretty small town. I took a few short backpacking trips using the town as a base and kept running into these people. They also found out I spoke fluent Chinese, and wanted me to translate the good word for them.
Did I mention my father is a minister? I went to church every Sunday from the age of 2 weeks to 18 years, and have never been back since. My patience for ignorant fundies on overseas missions is quite low. It’s bad enough going through hell and high water to find a remote place in this world and still be able to buy coca cola and run into another American “intruding” on your “native” experience. But to find a group of people trying to convert any and everyone in their path is hard to take.
Okay, finally, the holy rollers are getting kicked out of town for distributing bible tracks and propaganda that was translated into Chinese and Tibetan. One lady knocked on my door that evening and I let her in. She told me that “jesus wanted her to talk with me.” I thought it would have been more convenient if He had decided to just speak directly. After about a half an hour of laughing at her lines about “burning in hell” “saving my soul” and “letting Jesus into my heart” she kinda gave up and started looking at my stuff.
I had spent part of my visit collecting the local Tibetan Buddhist and Bon (the pre-Buddhist faith of tibet) artwork called Thankas. Beautiful paintings mounted on scrolls with colorful silk borders. The paintings are very colorful and striking. Buddhist saints are quite popular. I also had one of the wrathful incarnation of Guru Rimpoche, which featured a really large demonic looking figure in sexual congress with a human female, ringed with skulls, crushing humans beneath his feat, fire and brimstone around him, weapons in his hands, etc. Of course, this is all very heavy buddhist symbolism with lots of hidden meanings about conquering desire and the like.
Well, when my prostelyzing buddy found that she shrieked, dropped it like a poisonous snake and almost but not quite jumped out of her skin. Obviously, she had met the devil. I was like “hey, cool painting, you like it too?”
She calmed down but still wouldn’t leave my room even after I asked her to several times. She’d been in there for close to an hour. Finally, she said that she wanted to pray together with me because “deep down inside I can tell you are very lonely.”
“lonely, lonely, you think I’m lonely?!?” For some reason, that line just enraged me. So, I spread my arms out and spread the fingers of my palm, in what I like to think was an almost crucifiction/rapture type pose, and said “Look at these hands, how can I be lonely when I get to screw them all the time?”
And with that, the poor fundie finally left my room in tears. Christians 0, heathens 1.
It’s funny you should mention this, because it’s also a handy way to avoid beggars, hookers, drug dealers, and those guys who hand out the fliers for “Private Eyes Gentlemen’s Club.”
And for those who like Benny Hinn, I’m told the following is a clip from his show (it’s his wife speaking):
http://members.aol.com/DavisMcDavis/colonic.wav
Praise Him!
Yours in Christ,
DavisMcDavis
The Man Who…
I second that motion, my friend. “The Chosen” was excellently written, providing insight into orthodox Jewish culture, while still being a very good read, t’boot…
Now, back to the Fundies… oops, I’m sorry, I meant the “Evangies” :D…
Davis McDavis…
You mean “it’s also a handy way to avoid beggars who bug you, hookers who bug you, drug dealers who… etc.” you get the idea. After a very short time at school, I learned that if there’s a group of people shouting out to the crowd and holding signs saying “Jesus Saves From Hell” and “Love God, Love Life”, there’s not any point in listening to them. So I just crank up the volume to Roger Waters (who’ll probably be frying in the fire and brimstone with me… woo-hoo!) and trot on by like an unannoyed happy lil’ clam.
Satan…
Don’t you know anything, you heathen, you? The shirts are to constantly remind everybody around them that the wearer is better than everyone else. Sheesh!
Anyway, my general take on anything is this: Don’t be an ass. Ask me if I’d “like to hear more” all you want… just stop after the first “no”. Kindly offer me a chance “to be saved”… just don’t get in my face about it (that’s “violating my personal space”). Heck, you can even tell me that I’m going to hell… but you’d better smile when you say that.
I wonder if this has something to do with Charlotte, because I was on a flight from Charlotte to Chicago recently and my flight was full of Fundies. They began by getting together in the gate area before the flight and praying. My wife thought it was weird but they were being quiet, so I said, “don’t condemn them just because they’re crazy, they’re not bothering anyone”. I maintained this attitude until the flight took off and they started signing hymns, lots of them and quite loud. It was driving my wife and I nuts, but as I work for the airline I was flying on, I was hesitant to complain. Luckily for us, one of the flight attendants took it into her own hands and asked them to stop. When they did, the rest of the airplane applauded. I loved the look on their faces after the applause. They were shocked that Jesus hadn’t allowed all of us to be comforted by their music. Either that or maybe they were worried that with all these sinners on the plane, a nosedive was only moments away.