"Girls Gone Wild" -- product of or failure of feminism?

Great Debates
61

I suspect it doesn’t mean a damn thing. It’s a standard old line of cagal the mention of which somehow implies that whatever activity the term is applied to is automatically a bad thing.

“Objectification”, if we must use the label, is a standard component of human life and biology. Each of us is endowed with sexual signals and programmed to seek out sexual signals in others – men, sometimes, more so (or more obviously so) than women. The appreciation, under various guises, of such signals is often criticized as being objectifying. Drawing attention to or displaying one’s breasts is supposedly self-objectification, even more heinous, we are informed, than the standard variety. Looking at a beautiful woman’s beautiful legs, god forbid, is objectification, and let’s not even mention her ass. Yet, curiously, the inherent evil of objectification is seldom summoned when one is appreciating other features that may be pleasing, such as nose or eyes or brows.

I guess freedom from objectification might be possible for asexual or incorporeal beings, however it’s rather futile to expect the same from an extremely sexy species like homo sapiens. Unhealthy repression, feminazism, guilt, lack of comfort with one’s body or sexuality, excessive inhibitions and all that seem to me far more serious problems.

One time I was strolling along downtown Montreal in the warm season – an experience I strongly recommend to all who appreciate the female form – and it struck me that self-objectification is just a dirty word for altruism.

62

I dunno if watching hot babes in Montreal is really altruistic but I’ll vote for it.

My point is that it isnt even harming the babe …er woman either. She is being rewarded for something she is willing to do for free, what a great system.

63

Other way round. It’s the Montreal babes who are altruistic.

64

I’m too young and too stupid to know about Feminism, as it was or as it is, but as an aside: I think these videos do nothing good for the image of women in men’s minds. I can’t say I know any guy - myself included - that after seeing a girl flash the camera, respects the girl more. Respect is lost, or at best, it remains the same.

That’s the only way I can see this hurting women or feminism - the loss of respect. Maybe I’ve got it wrong, but wasn’t that kinda the point behind Feminism?

65

The only way I’d lose respect for a girl flashing the camera is if it’s at a very inappropriate place…like, say, a funeral. I can see myself admiring a girl for being so uninhibited. And it probably takes some courage to do this (although I suppose a lot of it is “liquid courage”). So I suppose my respect for a girl could increase. But not by a lot; there are far more important qualities to know about someone when it comes to respect (intelligence, compassion etc.). Flashing is mostly respect neutral AFAIC.

“I think strippers and porn people and other sex-entertainers are wonderful. They add to our lives with their beauty and daring and frankness and sense of fun. It’s a branch of show business, and I’m proud to call myself their colleague.” --Teller

66

The girls is turning herself into an object. Rather than caring about the girl as a person, the guys who hoot and holler and offer beads and t-shirts treat her like a sex toy or a porn mag. They don’t care about her, they only care about her boobs. The success of this show celebrates this behavior and encourages men (and women) to treat more and more women this way (and to encourage more and more women to act this way). I think women should be given the respect they deserve. The women on GGW don’t seem to want respect, because when someone thinks that they can get them to masturbate or give bjs or even “worse” on camera, they certainly don’t think very highly of them. Anyone who manipulates others can’t respect the person they are manipulating.

Furthermore, the owners of GGW pretty much treat the girls on GGW as ATM machines. The girls are just cash to them. THAT’S objectifying.

67

Hmm… I’ve done similar such things but not felt I was objectifying myself. Of course there wasn’t a camera aimed at me and I wasn’t being offered anything free (at least until the shirt was off, then came drinks fast and furiously.)

In fact I was sober when I took off my shirt mainly because it was a party, and there was a lady doing body painting. Looked like fun and I’d seen pics on the net of it before so I figured what the hell. Example Uhm… she doesn’t look naked, but she is so I’d be wary of opening the image at work. I had something similar done. It was kind of fun.

68

Slight Hijack, but is it ok to take my knob out and wave it around if I’ve had a few drinks?

We have recently had British girls arrested in Faliraki for GGW type of behaviour http://uk.news.yahoo.com/030821/140/e6l4p.html

69

That’s what human breasts – the only full and luscious breasts in the animal kingdom – are for: to grab the attention of highly visual human males. But quite apart from that, don’t you think that what you describe above is at least partly a problem with certain men rather than necessarily a problem with women enjoying their freedom from sexual hangups and inhibitions?

Of course. What makes you think that being uninhibited and a little drunk is not worthy of the respect we afford other people? Don’t you agree that it’s certain reactions to what a woman does that are lacking in respect and demeaning? This is not necessarily a problem with the girls’ actions.

Look at it this way. I see a gorgeus woman walking down the street, and of course I’m going to look at her. Respectfully and with admiration, even though in extreme cases my jaw may go a little slack and my tongue may loll somewhat. More often than not this sort of response (hopefully minus slack jaw and lolling tongue for reasons of personal decorum) is very much appreciated by the “object”.

Different story if my evil twin were to jeer and whistle and leer obscenely at the same woman on the same street, call out something rude she does not wish to hear, or go up to her and harass her. Who is guilty of inappropriate and “objectifying” behaviour in that scenario?

What if the woman is decked out in a push-up bra, little top, high heels, micro-skirt, and is wearing make-up? Is she asking to be treated badly? Of course not, that is a decision made by some men, consciously or sub-consciously. It seems to me our efforts ought to shift away from fuzzy feminist concepts like objectification and towards very real problems such as some of the male attitudes out there, attitudes I think we mentioned briefly earlier in this thread.

In the case of GGW settings, as long as the girls aren’t put in danger, as long as they’re doing whatever out of their own free will, who does it hurt?

I’ll agree that the organizers of GGW don’t seem to be the most respectful towards the girls and that they use them to make money, but the girls aren’t there against their will. It’s their decision to do this, they get to party for free, have fun, etc. Can you blame the girls just because a large portion of men react in a less than desirable manner?

70

I’m sorry for you guys who can’t look at a drunk, nekkid woman hootin’ and hollerin’ and flashin’ and havin’ fun and simply enjoy the sight of her. I like to hoot and holler too, it would be hypocritical of me to think badly of women for having fun in the same way I do if I didn’t think badly of myself for it as well – which I don’t. As long as no one gets hurt, let the good times roll.

BTW, even if a woman exposes her breasts or any other body part to me, she doesn’t automatically become some kind of human sex toy to me. What a weird trip some of you are on.

BTW, Spanna, maybe you can’t whip out your crank, but mooning is an old and honorable tradition on this side of the pond.

71

Good for YOU Evil Captor and you’re EXACTLY the sort of “audience” that women like that do what they do FOR!!! (that was heinously ungrammatical :D).

I agree with the “celebrating sexual attractiveness” type votes here. I think the only “objectifying” comes from those with archaic double standard attitudes.

I remember going to New Orleans and being pretty surprised to find two pairs of people full on making love in two separate “cages” in a rather interesting bar called “the Dungeon”.

(We were trying to find our way out and had made a wrong turn, a REALLY wrong turn!! :D).

Anyway, I don’t remember thinking anything other than “how interesting”. Hey, if people want to get “wild” even REALLY wild…

As long as they are a consenting adult, so what? Who are they hurting? Even though I’m not quite that “brave” or free, I certainly don’t think they are being “sluts” or somehow lessening their worth or honor.

If I were still a gorgeous young college woman? Who knows? Back in my day it was wet Tshirt contests (and I entered one of those, stone cold sober and JUST for the fun of it), nowadays it’s GGW.

If there are some backward goons who at the same time they are drooling over naked coed boobs are grousing about what sluts the girls are, then THEY are the problem, not the wild girls.

72

Yep, here we go. You all are saying that when a woman takes her bikini top off you are not thinking about how you want to have sex with her? Instead, you are more comparing her to the Venus de Milo statue or The Mona Lisa? All you are thinking about is how nice she is to look at? Now come on.

Guys who think this: stop lying to yourself, and the rest of us. You can’t convince me that you are respectable when you hoot and hollar at a half naked girl. You know that if you thought you had half a chance you would #(*^ her brains out. And you think that hre showing you her breasts makes that goal a little bit closer. THAT’S why you like girls to take their tops off.

Girls who think this: Come on! You know better. You know guys, especially drunk guys who hoot and holler at you. They only think of you as a sex toy. If they say otherwise, THEY ARE LYING to get you into bed, or to keep from looking like the sleazebags they are. They don’t think how great it is FOR YOU, how empowering it is FOR YOU when you show THEM your breasts, how empowering it is for you when you give THEM pleasure. They take that pleasure without ONE thought about YOU. All they care about is themselves. So why do you show your breasts? I have only one resonable conclusion: you LIKE to be objectified. If you think I am wrong, I have one thing to say. You aren’t around when they talk about you. I am. I know what guys say about the girls that get drunk and go wild when there are no girls around. They say the same things I am saying.

Sorry if this all comes out a little bit self-righteous and demeaning. But convince me otherwise. Maybe I’m wrong, but I see absolutely no evidence to support what you are saying.

73

This would be a perfect signature line.

Yes, prisoner, my first thought when I see a girl flashing at a camera is not boy I want to have sex with THAT one! but something else: wow, what an obvious tactic. Obviously meant to get me to react. And look at the poor saps who are falling for it. That woman must be laughing her ass off on the inside. Or maybe she isn’t. I wonder what she thinks about what she’s doing?

I’m not lying. I tend to be completely unobservant when it comes to girls flirting with me, but when I see something amazingly obvious like this I tend to look down my nose at it for being so manipulative. (And yes, that says a lot about me, rather than about the girl.)

Actually, I’m upset that you make a blanket statement about how you think I feel, but there’s no way I can convince you that you’re wrong, at least in my case.

FISH

74

There are FISH, of course, exceptions. Not all guys are sleazy. But GGW is marketed for the guys I describe. They may not realize it, but girls removing clothes in public do so for the enjoyment of the guys I describe. The girls may not realize who their audience is, but it’s the sleazy guys who encourage it.

75

What’s wrong with wanting to have sex with a girl who flashes? Sex is fun. Sex with uninhibited girls is even more fun. I don’t see how this is some moral failing. If your point is that looking at tits is sexually arousing, you’re not really breaking new ground here. And wanting to have sex with her and comparing her to the Venus de Milo (that is a pretty appropriate comparison) aren’t mutually exclusive ideas.

Speak for yourself. It is quite possible to be turned on by these girls while also seeing them as something more than “sex toys”.

Or maybe they like getting paid. Or maybe they like the attention. Or maybe they like doing nice things for horny guys. Or maybe they’re exhibitionists. And if they LIKE to be objectified, so what?

Maybe you need some different friends. Sounds like you hang out with some real creeps. I’m going to suggest that what these guys are saying is more a reflection of what kind of people they are than what kind of people the GGW are.

76

I do NOT hang out with creeps. Believe me, my friends don’t act the way I describe. They have the same beliefs I do. But being a guy, I still am witness to the creeps. And I have found many many more creeps than guys like my friends, especially when they are drunk at the GGW type atmosphere.

77

Then what is your problem with girls who go wild? If they don’t care what the creeps think (and why should they?), why are you so worried about what jerks think of the girls?

78

Well, to put in into the context of this thread… if these jerks have any significance… then the actions of these girls may be a blow to Feminism.

79

Do I think GGW videos are undoing the work of feminism? No way, the achievements of Title IX couldn’t be undone by millions of boob flashes. (That’s not to say Title IX work is finished by any stretch but it is a heck of a start). Is it good for the people running it. They are making money by filming the drunk and free-spirited without worthwhile payment. I’m sorry, a view of the nude body of most women is worth more than beads. I had to earn most non-print and non-televised nudity the hard way, by long-term emotinal commitment and trust. I don’t think the people making GGW videos are evil but I really hope they do something more with their lives.
As for the girls in the videos, I don’t know if it is really good for them. Maybe it’s liberating now, but someone may find the tape someday. If some prude guy finds the tape and dumps the girl, not her loss in the end. Explaining those tapes to mom and dad might be hard but they probably aren’t looking too hard. Still, that is not the best way for them to find out more about your college life (and where their money goes). The worst would be a future child discovering it. Kids can find some crazy stuff which would be hard to explain to the kids and hide from all their friends. Maybe you are okay with your boobs on tape, but would the other people in (or about to be) in your life. It is the choice of each girl, that is what feminism is about, choice. But choice has consequence and recorded choices will have consequences in the future.

80

Precisely my original point. Thank you TonyJ. I think a lot of this argument is a bit short sighted. A lot of you are arguing with me asking how it harms the girl. It’s probably not bad for the girl who flashes in the GGW videos. A lot of my friend’s parents were of the free-loving hippie type when they were these girls’ age and they admitted to it openly. No shame at all. So I don’t think GGW really hurts the girls. They may be more embarrased by it in the future because the girls in GGW do so for sexual reasons and the hippie chicks did similar things for political and personal freedom reasons: to throw their male dominated shackles off. I know it’s difficult to glimpse the fine difference between hippie chicks and GGW hotties. But there is a difference. Male hippies celebrated their female hippie’s accomplishment of freedom. Guys in GGW videos only want to see boobs.

These movies re-enforce the belief that this behavior is what girls are for, that women are here on this Earth to sexually satisfy men. The feminist movement was about women becoming more independent and free to be who they are. GGW is about satisfying men.

No I don’t think that GGW is the weapon that will wipe out feminism and shackle women all over again. And I don’t think that it is the goal of those who produce and watch the videos. But IMHO it does nothing for Women’s rights either. It’s simply a link in the web that makes Women objects.