the first link that popped up was “IT Outsourcing to India”. i don’t agree with this.
Um, no. That’s my point. You state without proof that constructing a straw poll for the Vig is anti-Town. Period. You state without proof that directing Town Powers is anti-Town. Period.
I’m stating an opposing viewpoint.
I’ll repeat myself slowly:
- An advantage that the vigilante has over a voted lynch is that the vig is not beholden to anti-town influence, whereas the lynch is NECESSARILY influenced by anti-town influence.
- A vote or poll to determine the vigilante’s activity introduces anti-town elements (necessarily, again, since anti-town elements are unknown and voting in this poll) to the vigilante’s decision-making process where there was none before.
- Therefore, attempts to make the vigilante beholden to a vote or poll increases net anti-town influence on the kills made.
Do you have a counterargument other than bare assertion?
Total aside: Now I want to run a pair of open games with identical setups, except one has a vigilante and the other has a simple night lynch as well as a day lynch. I am willing to bet that if you did a study of it, the former would have better overall results for town.
anecdotally the last time i was a town vig i just did my own thing. almost single handedly i handed that puppy to scum by decmating townies. so i am not sure that your last sentence is a universal truism.
An equal number of games have been lost by scum manipulating the voting skillfully, even in the absence of a vig. The advantage of a vig is an entirely separate decision-making process, IMO.
As an aside, we also have an enforcement problem that’s the other reason it’s stupid to try to direct town roles–you don’t know who they are. They do not have to listen to you. What are you going to do, threaten to lynch a town power role for noncompliance when/if they claim? Why bother setting up an infrastructure for what are purely symbolic reasons?
Just dropping in to say that I’m back among the living finally (my wife is taking her turn at being sick now). It looks like I didn’t really miss a whole lot while I was away, but I’ll be attempting a full reread of the Day’s events just in case I did…
The Rules state “If at any time a player has received 50% of the living players worth of votes + 2, the day ends. The value required for this hammer will announced at the beginning of every day.” Assuming that the vote count is correct and that the hammer has fallen, does that mean that the Day is effectively over now, and that we’re just waiting for **Red **to pop in with the color?
I assume so, yes. I think Drain has been lynched and it can’t be undone.
Snark doesn’t make your point. I’ve stated my points before in response to storyteller and I think someone else. You can’t eschew someone else for stating opinion when you yourself state an OPINION.
That anti-town influence is a minority. Furthermore, that anti-town influence must occur publicly and forms the point of the entire game.
The counter-argument is also that MASONS are a pro-town influence that can help guide the vigilante away from killing MASONS, which is an additional pro-Town consequence of public discussion. Vigs killing Masons happens with alarming frequency, which you should know since you saw it happen to storyteller when he was a mason.
Isn’t this the same thing as #1? Also, you can’t focus solely on the anti-town influences without considering the pro-Town influences and consequences which are numerous:
(a) there are 3 scum and one bomber (assuming no sleeper at this time) in a pool of 19 players. For every “anti-town” influence there are at least three pro-Town influences.
(b) the discussion is PUBLIC. This is how we find scum. How do you expect the vigilante to ‘find scum’ without information to do so?
(c) Masons have pro-town information that the vigilante does not. Public discussion will allow this pro-Town influence to have an effect.
(d) A hidden Cop or jailer might have relevant information that would form pro-town influences on the Vigilante choice.
Ah ha! See that word “net?” You aren’t using it right. What you said was “Look I found an anti-Town reason for us not to do this! I’m going to latch onto that one facet and ignore everything else.” That’s not “net.” That’s one sided. If you look at the negatives, you need to look at the positives too. Maybe even, you know, acknowledge their existence and stuff.
Do you read my posts?
Lynches are good.
Having two is even better.
Also, see above.
And I think you are wrong.
Vigilantes can be very swingy. I don’t see how “wants to kill scum” equates to “will kill scum.” Why do you think the Vigilante operating alone will be superior to open discussion? What intrinsic property of the Vigilante will have that one uninformed individual find scum? Simply because the Vig wishes to? I can think of one case where a Vig has dominated a game an essentially won it [del]single[/del] dual handedly, and in that case the ability to discuss the kill with one other player made a significant difference (I think). In many others the Vig has hurt more than help. I would argue “most” others, but I’m not doing a historical survey. Most usually, the Vigilante only becomes a powerful Town tool when scum are explicitly exposed publicly (e.g., should MentalGuy be proved to be a liar).
Finally, in terms of pointing, there are arguments that a compulsory Vigilante is worth less than Vanilla Town.
Let me put it a different way:
Given the choice between one lynch and two lynches, which do you think is better for Town?
It depends on a whole host of factors–town can mislynch themselves into an early grave as fast as a vigilante can put them there.
Counter-question for you, the other pole of my argument against this: how, exactly, are you going to force the vigilante to conform to your plan?
Upthread I’ve already explained the disparity between theory and application. I think it is a good idea. I don’t think it is possible to implement.
As for the Vigilante, if the Town came to a consensus, I find it hard to believe the Vig would go against the consensus. The only point I think that would happen is that the Vig would not kill himself simply because the town asked for it to happen. As above, I note that forming consensus is the barrier to implementation. I don’t think the Vig would be a problem. And if so, who cares? The straw poll in and of itself would be useful information.
Sooooo…should someone let Red Skeezix know that the Day is over? 
I really don’t understand the rush to hammer. I don’t think it’s Scummy. Just anti-Town and anti-fun, because of those of us with irregular schedules get reduced chance to participate.
I’m not going to go waste time with research and writing at length right now, because at any moment Skeez could end the Day and it will go to waste. So I’ll just say:
sachertorte has a good idea, and Zeriel is wrong. We cannot (and should not) force the Vigilante to do anything; if (s)he has a better idea than what we suggest in our (theoretical) straw poll, then (s)he is welcome to act on it. In a game like this, where the Vig is basically self-confirming, the Vig has no need to justify his/her actions if (s)he ever claims.
But by running a poll, we could have given guidance to the Vig - if (s)he wants it, and every time I’ve ever had a killing power, I very much would have - with the side benefit of generating additional discussion and additional accountability. What is the downside?
Fruitless and ultimately symbolic post-Day-end votes for
Astral Rejection for pointlessly ending the Day early when active, useful discussion was continuing; and
Mahaloth for clearly attempting to stifle continued conversation while talking out of both sides of his mouth (I mean, come ON, people ARE talking, but here’s Mahaloth with this routine of “hey, let’s end the day, but if anyone DOES have something to say, you should say it, please do, I’m not trying to stifle anything, anyone have anything to say, anyone, no?”
@Story: no mention of Wolverine, One and Only, Drain, and everybody else wanting to hammer and end the day? Consensus seemed to be for hammering, and at this point I agreed. You’re forgetting that yesterday I called for us to wait until you specifically got a chance to speak. You didn’t say anything about wanting to build further cases at that time, so your irritation is wasted on me.
Consider the Day Ended. I don’t have my spreadsheet here to display the full official vote count, But I will post a final vote count for the day once I get home. Just a note: Any votes after the hammer do not count, neither do any unvotes.
In other news:
Drain Bead, The Deranged Serial Killing Bomber (3rd Party) is dead.
Night 2 is now in session, and will end in about 51.5 hours (Why’s it longer? to normalize to seven o clock, which I prefer.) on Friday March 4.
An additional offer: If you would like to have day 3 extended to 5 days (to account for half the day being on the weekend), I am amenable to it, provided there is a two thirds majority vote by secret ballot in its favor. I will reveal the results, but not the voters. All votes must be PM’d directly to me, and pm’d BEFORE the end of Night 2. Any votes in this thread will be viewed as NIGHT STRATEGY, and punished accordingly.
As always, Night is fluff only.
Awesome.
Woot.
And a sigh of relief overcomes us all(well, all of us that are Town, anyway).
Yay!
Huzzah!
Well done!