Good natured gay jokes are holding back acceptance of gays as equals

In My Humble Opinion
1

Another “this is so banal I can barely believe I’m writing it” thread, two in one night! Must be something I ate.

Disclosure: I’m gay and 32 and I live in the UK. I had a hellish time growing up in school and experienced years of homophobic bullying that drove me to the point of trying to kill myself. I’m certainly not alone in this and given gay rights in Britain were still making inroads (it being the early 90s and AIDS was being openly considered a cure for homosexuality by some prominent politicians/religious figures) so whilst it sucked for me I know there are lots of people who had it just as bad or if not worse.

Flash forward to after school and when I started working and, funnily enough, in the world of adults people were much cooler about me being gay, for some it wasn’t even a remarkable issue. As time has gone on and the tide of opinion has moved in favour of gay rights this is even more the case, and it wouldn’t even occur to me now to be concerned that someone might have an issue with my sexuality (except when you’re obviously dealing with a neanderthal, but that’s incredibly rare).

So here we are practically in 2012. Gay marriage is possible in many countries (with a civil version available in my own), human rights now firmly encompasses sexuality and, the religious nutty parts of the world aside (I’m looking at YOU America - :p) it looks like we’re heading for full on legal gay equality in Europe, and in most Anglophone countries.

Sadly actual equality, that is being seen as and treated equally, lags behind the law. As much as I try not to think about this too much I can’t help it, and it is the good natured, let’s all have some banter “jokes” made to point out how different gay people are get in the way of the process.

Every time I hug a male friend and have him say, jokingly, “not too close!” I’m reminded that I’m different. Every time I’m in a discussion with a man about how he finds some woman attractive and I counter with an example of a man and get told “steady on!” I’m reminded that my sexual desires are unsettling. If I discuss sports and point out I don’t find them interesting and the joke is made “well duh, you’re gay” I’m reminded that, once more, I’m supposedly some kind of alien who doesn’t share the same psychology as straight men. Every time I read “not that there’s anything wrong with that” I know that, actually, there is, because why bother saying it otherwise? All of these attempts to be funny often are, I’m not saying they’re not jokes and that people are secretly homophobic. But ultimately they do serve in reminding you every time you hear one that you’re, at best, different on some level and, at worst, your right to exist is provisional and on sufferance from everyone else.

I’m not sure what’s prompted to make me write this but here I am. I’m not sure if I’m intending for this to be a discussion, a gentle RO or a refrain to dudes (and ladies) to think twice about making the hi-larious joke you were thinking of but which the other person might have heard countless times and just feels each time that a wedge is driven between them and the rest of the population.

2

The thing is, if you’re into sports, you get teased for rooting for the “wrong” team (“durr hurr I knew I shouldn’t have hired a Giants fan for this job”) your nationality (“durr hurr try these pickles but don’t get your head stuck in the jar, Polack!”) or your hair color (“hurr durr what else are ya gonna break today, blondie?”) Obviously none of these are anywhere near the level of getting bullied about your sexual orientation to the point of suicide, but there just seems to be something built into the psyche* that has to latch onto any perceived difference and put it down.

*ETA of some people, not everyone. In my experience the kind of people who find those kind of jokes funny are either 12, or don’t have the sense of humor God gave popsicle sticks.

3

As you say I don’t know many blonde people being imprisoned or executed for their sexualities in third world countries, or being “counselled” out of their hair colour by religious organisations. The point here is the impact you have. Would you make a joke about someone being in a wheelchair? No? They’re different, so surely fair game?

This isn’t a “take pity on the queer” thread, I’m just putting down my thoughts (partly for myself, actually) on why making light of homosexuality is still not helping gay equality, even when it’s done by gay people. What fundamentally matters is whether you feel like the person respects you, and these kinds of jokes really can make you wonder sometimes, even when the person making them probably thinks it’s all in good fun.

Specific anecdote - I worked with someone recently who was a self-described liberal, young indie guy and always up for a laugh. We’d talk via IM sometimes and if we got around to the subject of sex and relationships (he wasn’t getting any, for example) if I ever was too explicit about my sex life then I got a jokey “steady on, not too much information!”, despite we’d just been talking about who he was or wasn’t shagging. I’m sure he saw it as a joke, bit of fun, of course I’m not going to take any offence etc but ultimately each time something like that happened I couldn’t help but hear “your sexuality is gross and I don’t want to hear about it”, which I don’t think is something that would have occurred between him and another straight guy.

I’m not saying this is the issue with all humour, or with all straight men (my close straight male friends are so because I genuinely believe they see me as equal and would never make me feel anything otherwise). The people doing this aren’t anti-gay, aren’t trying to be anti-gay, but they’re not helping things.

4

Tell me about it. I have had to turn off supposedly inoffensive TV shows like 30 Rock, Family Guy (well OK, they are pretty offensive on purpose), *South Park *(ditto, in spades), What Not to Wear, Style by Jury, The Soup, because I get hit in the face with jokes about how disgusting and laughable “trannies” are and what a huge joke it is on you if you accidentally date one or “look like one.”

It *is *hard to keep a nonchalant smile on one’s face and brush it off with a good-sport “oh, well.” Not that one has a choice.

5

“Would you make a joke about someone being in a wheelchair? No? They’re different, so surely fair game?”-I just want to point out that a big difference between making a joke about someone being in a wheelchair and making a joke about someone being gay is that being gay didn’t happen because of a tragic event or illness; as being in a wheelchair is usually brought about by such things.

6

I’m not sure that I follow your point. Both being gay and being in a wheelchair are blameless conditions; both are, presumably, involuntary. But since being in a wheelchair is worse (I presume that is your point) than being gay, joking about being wheelchair-bound is worse that joking about being gay.

Have I understood you correctly?
Roddy

7

As a gay man myself I am sympathetic to your concerns. It’s tough because you know they’re not being homophobic and that it’s all in good fun, but you are constantly reminded that you’re different. Just remember that you ARE different, your psychology really ISN’T the same as a straight man’s (lots of neurological science is showing that gay/straight brains are wired and formed differently), and that you should be able to joke right back with them. Keep it light hearted and fun, poke fun of something that you think they might be a little insecure about, or something that might make them feel a little different. Just make sure it stays friendly and I think it’ll be good.

I think it’s perfectly acceptable to have a bit of fun joking around by pointing out people’s differences and such, as long as no harm is meant by it. For example, I’m a white guy who is dating an Asian guy, and I always tease him about things that are stereotypes for Asians. He knows I’m just doing it for fun and that I’m not sincerely racist or bigoted, but I am pretty much always pointing out that he’s “different”, that he comes from an Asian family, etc. I don’t think that’s a bad thing though.

8

If both jokes are equally “good-natured”, then I’d say yes. There isn’t a tragedy directly associated with the sexuality of the gay person; there is with the disability of the person in the wheelchair (most often). So, by making a joke about being in that wheelchair, you may also be “reminding” them (whether knowingly or not) of the terrible events that put that person in that chair. I’m not saying I think this is so, just that people place much more stigma on “wheelchair” jokes because they feel the person in the chair is already dealing with their own issues stemming from the injury and to make such jokes would only make them dwell on their problems more.

Yes, both are involuntary conditions; but only one was suddenly, violently thrust onto the person and overnight their entire existence was forced to change. I know this doesn’t account for all of those using wheelchairs, but for the sake of this discussion I think it works. I am only giving reasons why gay jokes seem to get more of a pass than jokes targeting other minority groups; in this case wheelchair users.

9

I’m not gay but I don’t think some of those “jokes” would get a pass from me. “Not too close” when giving someone a friendly hug would truly piss me off. You say these people are joking and not homophobic but I think maybe you are wrong about that. I personally have lesbian friends who hug me hello and goodbye and it would never in a million years occur to me to say something like that. So maybe you are giving your friends a pass when they aren’t entitled to one. Maybe you should tell them how it makes you feel and see if they stop. If not then that is not coming from a “joking” place.

10

No offense, and I empathize with your overall plight, but… duh?

Many people who are accepting of homosexuals are still repulsed by the idea of homosexual sex, which is why they don’t engage in it. Regardless of the genders / orientations of those involved, it’s probably best to save explicit sexual discussions and discussions of sexual attraction with those who primarily share your desires (i.e. most straight women probably would be more welcoming of such talk, as well as other gay or bi men). Notice straight men normally don’t have these same kinds of discussions with straight women (or at least not nearly as frequently as they would with straight guy friends).

11

I’m not too sure this is about being gay as much as it’s about being a guy.
I’m a straight guy and if I hugged on of my female friends I’m pretty sure I’d get the same reaction.
It’s more like - you’re a guy and we all know guys are always horny and on the make, so if I know I’m the sex you prefer and you initiate contact I’m going to be a little wary.

That’s why straight guys have to be careful about hugging women, even women we know, lest we be labeled creepy.

12

I completely disagree with you and I certainly hope you are wrong that straight people are “repulsed” by the idea of homosexual sex. If they are then we still have a long way to go. Just because something doesn’t turn me on doesn’t make it repulsive to me. There’s a middle ground surely.

13

And I disagree with you. I’m not really repulsed by gay sex, but I don’t think it’s a moral failing if someone is. Sexuality is really quirky and personal, and if someone doesn’t like the idea of gay sex, or oral sex, or anal sex, or straight vanilla sex, or group sex, or whatever, that’s their deal. They’re allowed. What they’re not allowed to do is to legislate against your enjoying whatever consensual adult hanky panky you want.

It is, however, rude for them to bring it up, especially if they’ve been talking about their own sex lives. If I go on and on to a friend about a delicious meal I made last night, and they respond by telling me about the eggplant parmesan they made, the fact that I loathe eggplant is beside the point: they listened to me, and I can goddam well listen to them. If I don’t want to hear about their nasty slimy vegetables, I need to keep quiet about my own.

14

Dude, I like you a lot, but I think you are really in the wrong here. Firstly, because (as I know you realize) not everyone in a wheelchair got there because of a sudden, tragic event.

And secondly because you never know if the gay person you are “teasing” has been bullied, harassed, or beaten for their sexuality. Your “joke” could also be very triggering for such a person.

I think the best idea is to not make these kind of jokes, and not have a contest to see which is worse. They are both hurtful and wrong.

To the OP, I am sorry this has hurt you. I have a lot of gay friends, and I feel very uncomfortable making that kind of “joke” so I never do. Then I get teased for being too PC! But, whatever; I understand some people don’t have an issue with it, and a certain amount of teasing goes on when everyone is part of the same oppressed class. It still makes me uncomfortable though. I don’t think it’s very funny… Anyway, if they really are your friends, try telling them how you feel. I mean, don’t be confrontational; that just makes people defensive. But if you told them like you wrote in your OP I think they would stop, if they care for you. I don’t think you ought to have to do that; I think the “jokes” are mean and shouldn’t be told at all, but it looks like you might have to. If they don’t stop, I would reevaluate the friendship, personally.

15

Then maybe the straight guy shouldn’t have brought up his own sex life. It’s a ridiculous double standard.

16

I gotta agree with kayT on this point. It’d never even occur to me to say anything like that to a woman who was bisexual or a lesbian.

I’m a pretty big girl – if someone said that to me while I was hugging them (not that anyone ever has), it’d make me question what they really thought of me. (No I’m not saying being fat and being gay are the same thing but both groups get dumped on quite a bit.)

17

The good-natured American joke you used in your OP reminds me that we’re different. :frowning:

18

I get a little annoyed when people lose their sense of humor. Yes, I would make a wheelchair joke to a disabled friend. I have, actually. I’ve been teased for my height, weight, nationality, but the most clever teasing I’ve received was for my resemblance to nazi propaganda posters.

I wouldn’t tease someone about something they are obviously self-conscious about, but a person secure in their sexuality ought to have a thicker skin than that. It sounds like the OP is taking good natured rubbing way too seriously.

19

But don’t you think if you hear it over and over and over and over, that it might get to you? I mean how often does someone have to politely laugh at their own expense before they just want people to shut the fuck up about it?

20

Yeah, I definitely think it’s the “over and over” part that grates. I’ve taken a lot of good-natured ribbing about being a vegetarian, but I had two co-workers in particular who could never let a single day go by without asking if I would eat a cow if it was planted in the ground, or what if it was already dead, or some other “hilarious” joke. And I agree that the “not too close” joke would get under my skin - the whole point of a hug is expressing closeness to someone. If you care enough about them to give them a hug, then you should be fine with them being close.