Agreed. If you don’t want to know about what I would do to Ryan Gosling, don’t tell me how you’d get freaky with Selma Blair.
Bullying and harassment are unfortunate for anyone to endure, especially a young person. I’m sorry you had to deal with that. Hopefully it made you stronger.
But with respect to your friends’ foibles and the examples given, I don’t think you can expect much more from the majority of people. Unfortunately your radar is on heightened alert after your formative years. Personally, I have to make conscious efforts to avoid saying similar things to gay or bi or other people myself, and sometimes when busy or not thinking these things can come out. The lifestyle is different from the norm - its bound to happen. But that is lightyears away from what you described when you were younger, and I’d bet that if you didn’t have that experience, your outlook on today’s inappropriate gestures and comments would be much more light-hearted. Perhaps the next generation…
25 years since I was in high school and the most horrifying thing I can grasp is that in this day and age it’s still “acceptable” to refer to something as “gay”, meaning: “stupid.” Even THEN my friends and I would express objections to remarks like that to no avail.
I don’t think someone saying “Whoa, not too close” when you hug them is inoffensive or a joke. It’s tacky and rude. Curious as to how you respond to it? People hug each other, it happens. I have actually, and please don’t let this get out, hugged someone I’m not attracted to!!! Oh my stars and garters!
Ambi, can you converse on any topic without involving wheelchairs?
I don’t care if guys have homosexual sex with each other. Guy on guy anal sex repulses me, meaning I’ll go out of my way to avoid seeing or hearing about it at all costs just as I’ll avoid scat and bondage porno. Seeing a big hairy butthole is gross to me and is even more so with a cock stuffed in it. Guy on guy bjs arent repulsive to me though i dont enjoy watching them. Why is this wrong?
I’ve got a strong foot fetish and am sure that people are repulsed by things that I will gladly do with womens dirty feet. Nothing wrong with that. Different strokes for different folks. Doesn’t mean they are repulsed by ME.
You’re treading a very fine line here. I don’t know that you are saying that it is more acceptable to you to make gay jokes over wheelchair jokes (although I would not be surprised to find out that this is true in your heart of hearts). But you seem to be saying “my problem is worse than your problem”. Everyone has problems, and each person’s problems are serious to him/her. But I don’t want to hijack this thread any further into wheelchair stuff.
To respond to the OP: this seems so ubiquitous to me that I have become desensitized most of the time. Except when I harbor warm friendly feelings for straight men, I feel very strongly that I can’t say anything overt. This makes me sad, and sometimes lonely.
Roddy
I didn’t bring wheelchairs into this convo. Geez. :rolleyes:
No, you’re misunderstanding what I’m saying. I won’t hijack this anymore though. (and for the record, I think it is acceptable to make wheelchair jokes and gay jokes, but that’s just me; I’m an equal opportunity offender:D)
(sorry, missed edit window-this is the last I’ll say)
I’m merely talking about how the outside world views people in wheelchairs vs how they view gay people. PIWC are typically seen with sympathy and pity and seen as fragile and needing a reason to feel good about themselves. People see “wheelchair jokes” as taboo because they appear insensitive or even mocking to the seeming plight of the person in the wheelchair.
Now this is a hypothesis, nothing more. And it is definitely not my personal belief. I talk shit with the best of em. No one is off limits. :eek:
Primus,
I can say that I will never make any jokes questioning or belittling your masculinity or suggesting in any way that you are effeminate because you’re gay.
It’ll be because you’re British.
Phew! Glad the wheelchair ≠ gay bit has been debated in my absence. I was trying to draw what I thought was an extreme but parallel example and it seems all the points I would have made are already addressed.
You’re absolutely right, and something I’d like to address immediately because I’ve realised that it wasn’t born out very well in the OP is that the issue isn’t really highlighting difference itself, it’s doing it in a way which conveys there’s a lack of feeling of equality and/or respect. I’m a feminist, I believe women are equal to men, but the genders differ from one another and pretending they’re exactly the same is meaningless. I feel perfectly able to point out a difference between male and female whilst making sure the recipient knows that it’s a joke and that, more importantly, I respect them and see them as the same as me and the joke is part of wanting us to have a friendly bond, not because I’m trying to degrade them.
Yes you’re right, and in fact if someone does this too much then I eventually stop bothering with them because if it’s coming out of someone’s mouth consistently you have to question their self-described position of liberal or pro-gay. In the case of the guy at work I was talking about these incidents happened enough for me to downgrade him from “guy at work I like and would probably like to be friends with” to “facebook friends only”.
The issue, however, isn’t so much for me as for him. He thinks he’s a liberal, open minded guy. Either he’s in denial about the fact that he isn’t, or he needs to realise the impact he’s having on others, because at the moment his perceived self identity doesn’t match reality. This thread is to put that idea out there for others who might be in the same position so they can have something to think about.
Good point and counter point here. To clarify in the discussion I was talking about it was more referencing that I HAD a sex life, not me explaining in graphic detail how I’d stuck my dick in a guy’s mouth or anything like that. I think with the taboo regarding gay sex still firmly in the cultural psyche you need to give people a lot of latitude on that so I’d always be careful when ascertaining who’s able to have a full discussion on the topic, and if they can’t then I guess I don’t mind too much (it’s not required after all). But, as Left Hand says, really it’s the double standard. If I’m going to hear about a guy’s fetish for big jugs then I presume I’m in a conversation where it’s game for me to talk about what I like on a guy, and I don’t expect to hit a wall of “TMI” when I do it. If I do, then, again, clearly there isn’t a sense of equality between us as this conversation is very one sided.
Thanks for the sentiments, and I agree it’s a tricky line to tread. To reiterate I’m not proposing that one’s sexuality never be remarked on, or that it can’t be done in the context of humour, but if it’s going to happen it DOES need to be done in a way that conveys a sense of equality and respect. As for being accused of being too PC, I think as long as you’re not taking offence on behalf of others (“uh, guys, I think if a gay person was in the room they’d be offended by that joke”) then it’s a personal choice and it’s completely valid given how messy an area it can be.
It’s worth noting that there are a ton of men who DON’T do this - I have friendships with straight men where I have a clear sense of respect and equality and gay jokes are never a problem because they’ve demonstrated to me through their actions that they have positive regard for me, and the jokes are seen in that context. If someone hasn’t actually done that (work conversation guy) then you eventually have to conclude that the humour isn’t good natured but a mask for something else.
Did it make you feel I don’t respect you? If so I’m sorry. I wasn’t attempting to make a joke at your collective expense, merely point out a continuing source of irony.
Well, all I can say is be the change you want to be. If you think this behaviour is there simply due to inertia and not because it’s how people really feel or want to be perceived, then challenge it and say how it gets in the way or your friendship. It may not go down that well but it’ll help sort who is ultimately worth investing in and who isn’t.
And compared to you knuckle dragging, gallon hat-wearing, WWF-watching yanks you’d have a point. 
Something I wanted to throw into the conversation because I really rate this guy and his writing is a point made by Steve Biddulph, the author of “Manhood”. The book analyses the traditional model of masculinity and points out how destructive and constricting it is for men and how they lose out on traditional patriarchal values as much as men do. One section lists the current components of male gender identity that are harmful to the men exhibiting them and to others. It also links to what Roddy said upthread. One of them is:
In H/R we teach sensitivity traning. Basically it amounts to there is a time and a place for everything. You simply cannot make jokes to anyone anytime. If you know someone it totally changes everything.
There are levels and you have to realize this. I can laugh at a “bad woman driver’s joke,” simply because I know women (as a group) are not bad drivers. I find it unfunny when someone makes a woman deserve to make less money joke. Similar things, anti-woman jokes, but two outcomes.
I can joke with my black friends only because I know them. I would never dream of joking around with a black person I didn’t know. Same in my job, I’m a department head. I don’t joke with others, because they would take it much to seriously.
The OP said something about gay marriage or a civil version. He doesn’t sound like he would be offended by a civil version of marriage. I would be very offended if I was gay. Either allow gays to be married or make all unions civil. None of this second class, sit int the back of the bus crap.
And I’m straight, but offended, but many gay people are happy with civil ceremonies.
One big problem I have in H/R are weight jokes. It’s all over the board. I had to talk to one obese woman about making jokes about overweight people. And she was much heavier than anyone she was joking at and I felt she didn’t do it to be mean. She was trying to be funny and it wasn’t being taken that way.
But I bet if those people she was joking at were her friends, they wouldn’t have been in my office complaining they’d have laughed with her or given it to her (humorously) back
I’m French-Canadian so you’ll have to come up with another list of accurately offensive invectives : )
The whole “prove you’re a man” thing grates me. Whenever I hear “man up” or “wimp” it reminds me of slut shaming or “be a proper lady”. I can broadly ignore it but I always feel like insulting the person who uses those terms.
In bootcamp, one guy asked me if I was gay in front of others and I do remember being scared.
On the other hand, the “prove you’re a macho man” urge does provide some entertaining fail videos on youtube. The vast majority of videos involving people doing stupid, reckless stunts can be attributed to that machismo spirit so it’s not all bad.
I don’t agree. If someone wants you to keep out of their personal space, keep out of their personal space. You are the jerk if you have a problem with that.
I’ve found that often gay people themselves will initiate the joke first, presumably because they know it’d be coming and want to show that they are not “oversensitive”.
There was a chap in my last job who was quite a camp bloke, and if I wandered up while he was eating a banana for lunch he would be the one to say “don’t get any ideas” or “calm down, I’m not thinking about you”, even though (genuinely) most of us hadn’t even considered any inuendo.
I do recognise what you’re talking about though - tolerance and acceptance tempered with an implied “don’t be *too *gay” attitude.
I see your point, but it becomes rude an offensive when they only do it to gay people.
A similar example is our young interns (all under 21) went back overseas. They are on a program from our overseas office. On Friday we gave them a little going away party and one of them from London, went around and hugged everyone good-bye, but I notice, the three gay men, he only shook hands with.
It could’ve been a co-incidence, but I find it odd that out of 20+ people he hugged them all except the gay males goodbye. (And yes, I don’t know everyone who is gay, but you see where I’m going with this)
That’s not what’s being said - it’s someone agreeing to hug you but then, during or after, making a comment that boils down to “I’d like to reiterate that despite hugging a gay person I’m not gay”. I’m not proposing anyone receive hugs they don’t want, but I do object to getting a sting in the tail of the act.
Yes I think that’s it. It’s “I’m okay with gays in theory but I don’t want to have to deal with the reality too much”, which is fine if that’s actually your position but don’t pretend that you’re a pro-gay liberal if that’s how you feel.
I think you meant Western world there, cause a look at Anglophone Africa wouldnt lead me to the same conclusion.
Not wanting to threadshit or anything, but didnt you post more or less the same OP a month ago?