Gore is a FRAUD and a SORE LOSER

The BBQ Pit
81

Yes, that’s a better analogy.

Here’s my thoughts on the matter:

  1. When I talk human error, I’m talking about the possible misvotes for Buchanan not the discarded votes. It is clear that we don’t know the full story about the discarded votes. If almost all were double votes for Gore/Buchanan, then maybe the Democrats have a case. However, for all we know they may have been discarded because the voters couldn’t decide between the two Socialist candidates on the ballot.

  2. Yes, the “quarter” was used before and since an election didn’t ride on the votes last time, no one complained. They obviously should have and I’m sure it never will be used again.

  3. Do I think the Dems wuld be complaining if the “flip” had gone there way? No. Do I think the Reps would be complaining if the “flip” had gone against them? Yes. Not because I think “Republicans are just as bad as Democrats”, but because of what both parties have on the line.

The Republicans have an extremely slim majority in Congress. They need a President would will be more likely not to sign their legislation because they don’t have the votes to override. The Dems need a president who will side with their views because they don’t have the votes to defeat Republican legislation. All of this political posturing is about power and who will end up with it. The Reps want to be in power just as much as the Dems.

As for all you who are arguing that the Dems are “heartless fucks” who want to take hard-earned money from Americans. I can argue that it’s all perspective and either party can come out looking like a “heartless fuck” if you’re on the opposite side of their platform.

Neither side is evil and neither side is good. We are all just human beings with conflicting needs.

82

Okay, folks.

If you went in to vote, and when you were done you realized that you had voted incorrectly due to a confusing ballot, and had been refused a NEW ballot so you could vote the way you WANTED to vote, how would YOU feel?

Personally, I would be absolutely LIVID!

And this IS what happened to these folks who meant to vote for Gore.

So lets can the crap, here. The issue is that these people were not given their constitutional right to vote.

IMHO, the whole state of Florida should redo the election. There was also the issue of the “lost” ballot boxes. And if I were Bush, and my brother was the governer of the state that this screw up happened in, I would WANT to have the state re-vote. If he wins, he will be covered with the slime of corruption even if none occurred.

Scotti

83

In a post too moronic to reproduce, Beelzabubba argues that since I am not a Republican, I am a communist.

Beelzabubba, if this were a distance learning course, and I were getting paid to pry open your empty zip-lock storage bag of a mind, you might actually learn that Richard Nixon was more of a social liberal than either Bill Clinton or Al Gore.

Describing Al Gore as a communist’s candidate is as stupid as mistaking you for a Ph.D in political theory. This is not a mistake that I, for one, am in danger of making.

84

Gore has asked for a manual recount which, as Stoidela helpfully explained, is in accordance with Florida State law. Bush first asked for “finality” hoping that millions of Americans would agree with chumps like Scylla that rushing to make Bush our first self-appointed President would be preferable to finding out who actually won the election. Fortunately, more than 2/3 of Americans (according to a CNN poll) are more interested in determining the actual winner than they are in being cowed by Scylla-style name-calling.

Most recently Bush is appealing to the courts to prevent a manual recount–obviously aware that thousands of Florida votes have been set aside b/c of the limitations of 1960s-era computers that reject any bit of paper in the hole.

As far as I am concerned that should hand-count the votes in Florida county–Republican-leaning as well as Democrat.

Wouldn’t it be nice actually to know who won this election?
Scylla, if you are impatient in the meantime, there are plenty of Baywatch reruns on the USA network to occupy your astute powers of reason.

85

Well, no, it’s not. This is what happened to unknown number of individuals who meant to vote for Gore.

Well, it’s not even that. This is what some people who claim that they meant to vote for Gore claim happened.

Yeah, if this happened to me I’d be mad as hell too. And I’d stay there and raise a fuss until they gave me a fresh ballot. At least in the future, people will be more aware of their rights. By the way, where I voted, (paying careful attention to the ballot, checking several times both before and after I voted that I had done so correctly), there were clear instructions on the ballot that if you screwed up, to ask an election clerk for a new ballot. I don’t know whether that was the case for the Florida ballot, but Florida law clearly says so. Citizens have some responsibility to know their rights.

The fact of the matter is, there’s no way to know how many people this actually happened to or who they actually voted for.

86

I agree with you, but I wonder–and I mean no disrespect here–if you really have thought through the “ideology” that you stand for. The New Democrats have moved so far to the right on economic policy that they are now the party of (what is euphemistically called) free trade, Alan Greenspan and the Washington consensus. With the exception of the debate over whether or not to privatize part of social security–which Bush wouldn’t be able to do anyway since he doesn’t have the trillion dollars it would cost–there is no reason for any fiscal conservative to question the Gore agenda. The social programs that Bush ludicrously calls “big government” are extremely modest and they are for things that the majority of Americans agree we need (education, prescription drug help for seniors, etc.). Should these things really be ignored so that Bill Gates and Sam Walton get tax relief? Government has dropped as a share of GDP under Clinton and welfare has been “reformed.” Gore’s proposals would not significantly reverse that trend–just level it off.

Unless you are religious zealot–and I sense you are not–the only reason to vote for Bush is if you feel that inequality hasn’t grown fast enough, that corporations ought to be given even more power over the great mass of people.
I say this in all seriousness. Look into the subject.

As to staying on topic, it’s absurd to pretend that your posts on the “sore loser” debate aren’t directly influened by your preference for Bush.

87

Johnson, I am crushed, I am degraded, I have never been laid so low. How dare you imply that I get my information from the 6:00 news or USA Today?! Why, anyone who has ever met me knows that I would not utter a peep without first consulting the National Inquirer and the Fox network. I am positively devoted to Rupert Murdoch. I scrutinize everything he publishes–down to the last tabloid tit.

88

Nice sig, Mandelstam. True colors coming out?

89

Indeed. And thank you!

stoid

90

\

Okay, you are wrong. You are SO WRONG. and I am so not in agreement with you that if I were a nasty person, I would get nasty. However, I believe that you have a right to your opinion. Even though you are wrong.

91

Yes, Johnson, you have found me out. Radiohead IS my favorite band.

92

Well, nastiness certainly isn’t called for in any case. But what is it I said that was wrong? Some people say they were turned away. Do we know how many? Most who have complained about the “confusing ballots” apparently didn’t realize anything until they left the polling place. Certainly they are not entitled to a new ballot at that point, are they? And for all we know, some Republican, Socialist, Libertarian and Reform voters tried to get a new ballot and couldn’t. And no doubt plenty of voters of all stripes tried to get a new ballot and were successful.

I’m sorry you think I’m wrong, and if you have any evidence that I am, please let me know.

93

But, since I actually believe Scylla has a mind that is open to actual debate, as opposed to Major Idiot, I’ll give it another shot.

Vice President Gore didn’t lose, nor did he challenge in the sense of a court suit. His campaign asked for a recount, which is fully in keeping with Florida election law. His underling have acted badly in threatening legal action before the recounts were even over, but, unless I’m completely misreading the news reports, no suit was filed on behalf of Vice President Gore’s campaign. The suits that have been filed were filed on behalf of individual voters in Palm Beach County. There’s a subtle but important distinction between the two.

That implies that Governor Bush has lost. He hasn’t. The process is still ongoing. While I don’t think that Governor Bush is ‘a sore loser’, I do think he has been ill served by bringing a suit at this point. The Republicans have done exactly what they have demonized the Democrats for merely considering. After positioning themselves as wanting to allow the ‘people’s will’ to stand and eviscerating the Democrats for even considering recourse to the court, they have actually brought a legal action. The fact that they might actually have a point is irrelevant to the perception of many people, just as the fact that the Democrats might actually have had a basis for considering legal action was to many others. It’s also difficult to understand the contradictions inherent in their actions and an MSNBC report that says Governor Bush recently signed a new law that allows manual recounts in Texas for disputed elections.

There is also the Newsweek poll, already mentioned in this thread, which shows that 72% of the people support the manual recounts. Additionally, 69% of the respondents felt that the election process is working as designed through the review and recounts. I don’t necessarily agree with the prevailing opinion that the recounts and absentee ballots should be the final arbiter, but that’s why it’s called an opinion poll. If Governor Bush wishes to carry out the “will of the people”, then he might best begin by listening to their opinions first. Vice President Gore would be well served to take a peek at it as well and reconsider his tactic of having his staffers and supporters hold out the boogey man of a court challenge should the recounts and absentee ballots go against him. [sarcasm]But then again, as Major Idiot has pointed out, I’m remarkably naive.[/sarcasm]

I still have difficulty understanding why anyone feels the voting process has been threatened by the mere act of turning to a court for resolution of serious questions about the election. Redress through the courts is a part of Florida election law, and thus a part of the election process itself. I think the process is strong enough to withstand it. The main consideration in my mind is whether or not the possible benefits outweigh the drawbacks. In this case, I don’t think they do. Going to the courts, for both candidates is a lose/lose proposition.

People can run around, screaming that the sky is falling as loudly as they want, but the Republic will stand after all of this is over. Until Tuesday night, Hayes/Tilden in 1876 was a footnote brought to the public’s attention once every four years if at all. The rest of the time it was the province of historians, election law academics, political hacks and twisted trivia junkies.

If it turns out the Governor Bush wins the Electoral College vote but not the popular vote, we’ll manage. It’s happened before. In 1824, Andrew Jackson won the popular vote and still lost the election in the House of Representatives. In 1888, Harrison won the Electoral College vote while losing the popular vote by a thin margin (just less than 1%, while the current margin with the latest available numbers at this time for this election give it a margin of .24%).

The upcoming presidency may be ‘weaker’, no matter who eventually occupies the Oval Office; then again, it may not. Jack Kennedy turned a questionable victory in 1960 into one of the most popular and activist Presidential terms we’ve ever had (or suffered through, depending on your point of view). In either case, it probably won’t have any lasting impact on either the presidency or the process of election.

**

Well, to be honest, I haven’t seen a whole lot of admirable behavior by either side during this entire situation. This thread title and contents is enough to show that partisanship runs rampant on both sides. Right here on SDMB we now have the electronic version of the drooling idiots standing outside the Palm Beach Courthouse, performing their carnival geek acts for the cameras in a pathetic attempt to define themselves. I realize that politics brings out some of the strongest emotions in people, but the level of venom in the various threads is surprising even to me. No criticism is allowed on either candidate without their supporters swarming out of the woodwork with fire in their eyes and righteous indignation in their hearts, ready to defend the honor of their leader from any and all denigration, no matter how well reasoned or mild in its delivery.

But as you sink your fangs into the opponent’s jugular, consider this, no matter what the outcome; the country is going to go on. In twenty years, no one is going to give a damn, one way or the other. It’s going to be a footnote in history, just like 1824, 1876 and 1888.

*Yeah, I know, it’s another one of those annoyingly reasoned, levelheaded misplaced pit threads (except for the last couple of paragraphs, perhaps). I can’t help it, I’m a pervert. And besides the fact, I like Scylla, no matter how often I think he’s wrong. His thread on *Nazi Whistle Pigs** is still the funniest thing I’ve ever read on this or any other board and was the determining factor in getting me to go from lurking to posting. (So blame HIM!)

94

…is making me dizzy. I can’t think straight.
I think they should just throw out the whole election and make Clinton

KING! :wink:

95

Sorry, johnson, that was a feeble attempt at humor.

But my understanding is that thousands of people actually realized at the polling place that they had voted incorrectly and were refused new ballots.

So those people WERE refused their constitutional right to vote.

96

Scottisher… several thousand refused their right to vote?.. more like a few hundred at best… and the reasons would be very simple to figure out… each precinct has a particular number of registered voters… let’s call Pct 1 in County A has 1000 registered voters. Going by past election turnouts of say… 50% voter turnout… they would need 500 ballots on election day… so they plan on having on hand… double that amount plus 10%, so in theory they would have on hand for election day approximately 1100 blank ballots for the voters in that precinct. Now, 70% of the voters show up to vote, and more than half of them screw up and request a new ballot… by law in most Florida counties – dont know about elsewhere-- you can ask for a new ballot up to 3 times. So its quite logical that if half of the 700 people who showed up to vote screwed up and asked for a new ballot more than once… running out of blanks wouldn’t take long at all.

Now, for the question of the Palm Beach ballot. It was designed by the Democrat political committee and approved by the public and both republican and democrat parties more than 4 wks before the election. Sample ballots were printed in the papers and sent to registered voters 8 weeks before the election. This is the same ballot they’ve used in that county for nearly 10 years, with very few changes.

Ok, so for arguments sake, let’s say it was confusing and folks who thought they voted for Gore voted for Buchanan. Then why out of 400,000 votes cast on THAT ballot, did Buchanan ONLY get 3700 votes? If it was so confusing, and the voters voted for Buchanan instead of Gore, then by all estimates, Buchanan should have recieved well over 100,000 votes in Palm Beach county… not 3700. In Palm Beach county, there are 15,000 some odd registered Reform Party voters. Why is it so unreasonable to fathom that 3700 of those 15000 voted for him?

By law, Florida does an automatic recount if the difference between candidates is less than .05 of 1%. Ok, we’ve had the mandated recount, we’ve had a second recount, and now the democrats want a third, LESS reliable recount by HUMANS, which only INCREASES the ERROR factor. As one person stated, machines are not party-biased. If the cards are not punched correctly that’s one thing, it just doesn’t read it, but it will not make a judgement as to what IT thinks the VOTER wanted to do! The machine simply skips that vote and goes on to the next one.

Across Florida in this election alone, over 140,000 votes were thrown out for various reasons… double votes for President, badly punched, etc. In 1996, more than that were thrown out for the same or similar reasons. This is nothing new here, or anywhere in any other state, it’s just getting more attention because the race is so close this time. Other states are reviewing their vote counts because of all the stink in Florida. During past elections, there has always been talk of bad/illegal/confusing ballots, but the time to fix such things are BEFORE the elections, not after. The people in Palm Beach County Florida have had four years to complain about the ballot used in 1996, and have done NOTHING. So if they were confused again, so be it. As I stated above, if they were that confused, then Buchanan should have received over 100,000 votes, not a measly 3700 out of a registered Reform Party pool of 15,000.

97

Hmmmmm, are you a member of the National Socialist party? That’s the same shit they used to do. Sad to see that you’d lower yourself to that, but that’s what happens when a shit head like you is wrong.

98

This is unfounded speculation. Buchanan’s vote count was 5 times higher than in neighboring counties, more than 3 times larger than the next closest county (which had more votes counted tham PBC). If Buchanan had received 100,000 votes it would have been absurdly obvious that the ballot was biased. As it is, the level of statistical variance is great enough that there is no doubt that Buchanan received votes that had not been intended for him.

This is incorrect. There are only a few hundred registered reform party members in Palm Beach County. The Bush campaign threw this number ouy as a conglomeration of several small party registrations. By far, the largest number in this group (over 13,000, IIRC) are registered in the Independent Party. The Independent Party had no candidate running.

As it turns out, I may be one of those registered voters, since when I registered I simply said “independent”. This is not an uncommon tactic for fringe parties to try and swell their registration rolls. I can assure you that it in no way predisposed me to vote for Pat Buchanan.

You are mistaken. There has been only one recount sompleted. A third sample count is presently underway in Palm Beach County.

As to “reliability”. The machine recount demonstrated that it was not accurate to the degree necessary to decide such a close race, since the variance between the two results was greater than the magnitude of separation. The machine count also failed to count the votes of a significant number of citizens based upon the tolerance of a mechanical process.

And Palm Beach County had 29,702 of those. That is more than 20%. In one county. That fact was deemed sufficient by the canvassing board of Palm Beach County, as provided for by the Florida election laws, to warrant a sample manual count in 3 precincts.

Now, feel free to continue your rants about how unfair it is for the votes of citizens to be counted as accurately and reliably as possible in an election currently separated by less than 400 votes, but please try to use actual facts instead of easily falsified misinformation. Ii isn’t that hard to type http://www.cnn.com into a browser window.

99

As has been amply discussed, a manual recount in which a variety of individuals try to determine the “intent” of the voter is most certainly not counting votes “as accurately and reliably as possible.” It’s now clear that that standard won’t be met until we move to some form of (preferably uniform) electronic voting. In the meantime, it is clear that the Gore team has selected the counties for the recount in order to give them as much advantage as possible (more power to them, but let’s forego the objective vote count crap).

And there’s the tape on This Week of the moron who said “Well, I voted for Gore, and I must have punched the Buchanon hole as well,” or something very close to that effect. So again, we have either a bunch of absolute morons who can’t follow instructions a fourth-grader can, or a bunch of absolute morons on whom the powers of suggestions work wonders. This guy has no clue if he punched two ballots? And he’s out there demonstrating?

100

Obviously, if it’s on TV or otherwise in the media, it must be absolutely, factually true.

Some examples–
[list][li]Giving Florida to Gore at 8:00 EST.[/li][li]Giving Florida to Bush.[/li][li]On the Diane Rehm show, Daniel Shore and her other guest asserting that a ballot with two punches for President was thrown out in it’s entirety, and these individuals were therefore disenfranchised.[/li]
None true. Well, one of them will turn out to be.

And of course, Dewey did defeat Truman.