Criminy.
If I discuss gay issues, I’m a one-trick pony.
If I discuss religion, I’m a one-trick pony.
If I discuss politics, I’m a one-trick pony.
Exactly how many tricks can a one-trick pony have?
Well, in one way I hate to see it. You do lay down a helluva rant when you get rolling. It all hangs together, too.
Regards
Testy
I thought you and the goboyfriend were monogamous. You shouldn’t be having any tricks. 
That’ll teach me to preview. :mad:
Yeah, that’s all I’m really asking and I suppose I could’ve asked for it nicer.
Oh, good. Another promise to “dial it back a notch.” Must be Monday.
I don’t know if you’re being insincere, or if you just have exceedingly small notches.
God loves you and so do I. Have a good day.
When I was growing up, fundamentalistic type churches were an oddity of the South. Catholic churches were busy trying to fight bigotry of the type that voting for JFK was voting for the Pope. Since then, the Fundamentalists, louder than their numbers, have pulled everyone to the right. It’s great that your church is a good place, but is your minister proclaiming in the press that God and tolerance are not mutually contradictory?
Living in the Bay Area, we’ve got it relatively easy. I’ve written to the paper about issues, and given money. And I’ve had the opportunity to be supportive, like when my daughter and her boyfriend went to the Junior prom with her friend and his boyfriend. The kids around here couldn’t imagine discrimination - even the religious ones, as far as I can tell. (I don’t know what they say at home, but in public they’re good.)
But I think you miss the point. It’s not just politics, it’s God. If someone is intolerant because his pastor pointed to the intolerant portions of the Bible, and he does not have the intelligence or sophistication to understand why those passages don’t apply or are misread, then an atheist telling him he is wrong is going to do no good. My word against God’s? I wonder who will win. But you believers can speak to these people in terms they can understand and accept. In my lifetime, you’ve been losing ground.
As far as I can see, you start from a moral position of tolerance and try to justify it from the Bible. I think many of these people start from the Bible. I know I’m going to catch hell for saying this, but it is like creationists re-interpreting Genesis to match whatever physical evidence there is. I know you are doing it because you are too good and ethical to ever accept that God is a bigot. But it seems that the other side is easier to show. Maybe most people are naturally bigots. I’d hate to think that.
I don’t accept that the word of God should have anything to do with our laws. So I’m not only on the same page as believers, I’m in a different library. Do you think God should influence our laws? If so, if you got proof that God hates gay marriage, would you change your mind?
I say all this out of respect for Christianity and all religions. But true believers are dangerous. I think any believer must accept that the true believers are right in principle, if not in what they believe in. So if you don’t work double hard at convincing them that God is for the things you think are right, we’re all in trouble.
No, it is not fine. It is not fine if the pharmacist refuses to accept prescriptions from black people, white people, Asian people, gay people, straight people, or people with crosses around their necks.
It doesn’t matter that they can go to a separate but equal facility across town. It doesn’t matter how strongly the pharmacist believes. If he is a pharmacist, he should fill all legal prescriptions for all people, or get out of the business.
We fought this battle 40 years ago. I’m sure that you would never think of discriminating today in the way they did back then, but your words are exactly those of George Wallace, Ross Barnett and Strom Thurmond.
I’m not Siege, but I’m one of those believers who feels that my religion should have nothing to do with the creation of or upholding of our laws. Should someone ever get a written, notarized statement from God saying “I hate fags”, well, then I’ll have to admit that I made a mistake in choosing my religion. Somehow, I doubt that will ever happen - I may be in the minority in terms of the religious people in this country, but all I know is that deep down inside, I feel that my God would never condemn human beings for a trait that they are born with. I know many disagree, but I just go by what I feel.
I’m in the process of converting to a religion that does go against many of my secular moral beliefs. I believe in gay marriage and legal abortions - yet I’m choosing to become a Catholic. I reconcile my beliefs in one way - I will support what the Church sets as law for myself - i.e., I will not get an abortion, I will not divorce (the gay marriage doesn’t really apply to me - and I’m on birth control for a medical condition, so I’ve been told that’s okay.) - but when it comes to secular views, I haven’t changed. I will still fight for legal gay marriages, I will still do my best to help keep abortion safe and legal. And someday, I certainly hope that abortion will no longer be needed because sex education and proper birth control methods will have eliminated the need for it - but that has nothing to do with my religious beliefs. I also know that while I probably won’t see it in my lifetime, that the Catholic Church will someday allow two gay men or women to marry. I hope that my children or grandchildren will see this, and I hope that they will grow up knowing that it’s okay to question things to enact change, including their religion.
(Before anyone would like to argue with me about Catholic doctrine, I have come to terms with the above after MANY, many discussions with my cousin who is a priest and many hours of research on my own part. I am still planning to convert, and I plan to raise my children within the Church. I’d prefer not to be argued with about this - I know my own feelings, and this is a highly personal issue to me - I’m only sharing to give a different viewpoint…).
Whether I am Baptist, Catholic, Muslim, Jewish or atheist, I would still take the position that religion has no place in creating laws in the US.
E.
You are right, it starts with what a person believes - or at least it does for the leaders. Don’t you think that there are some believers who would be tolerant but are not because those they trust with their faith are telling them god doesn’t agree wth tolerance?
The cloak of religion is a powerful one. It says that it is not a matter of two people or groups disagreeing, it is the opposition disagreeing with the creator of the universe. You’ve seen the responses to the problem of evil - whatever god does is right. One who interprets what God does to his flock sets what is right for them, and there is no talking back to god.
You know that these Sunday schools don’t teach critical thinking. You know that they rely on faith. How can you convince them, without starting from the position that intolerance is wrong, that you are right and they are not.
I know you’re right. I’m just looking for help from you on how to show it - based on the Bible and faith, not based on non-religious ethics. (Those ethics are why I know you’re right.)
Voyager, I’ve just about had it. You see, my priest has said publicly to the press that intolerance is wrong and I have taught critical thinking when I’ve taught Sunday school. The last time I did so, one of the kids I taught, a junior in high school told me she was actually a Wiccan. Not only did I not disown her, she remains a good friend and even posted here for a while (do a search on Agentfroot, but you will have to go back a couple of years.
Right now, I feel like the only thing that will satisfy you is if I give up my current life and set up a combination monastery/convent where people do nothing but speak to the press and post on the internet 24 hours a day, 7 days a week trying like mad to counter the Fundamentalist idiocy that some fools spew almost as constantly. It would, unfortunately, have to be a celibate community because heaven forbid we should allow ourselves to be diverted from the job of countering the Fundamentalists for one moment of the day.
Forget it. I do what I can and I used to beat myself into nasty, suicidal depressions because I wasn’t doing enough. I’ve quit doing that – as a friend of mine pointed out a few times (I can be stubborn), if I’m dead, that kind of rules out doing anything. I’ll keep doing what I can and if you don’t like it, shove it. Right now, I’m kind of hardpressed to think of a reason why I should do anything at all since anything I do do will be dismissed by the Fundamentalists as promoting evil and by the likes of you and gobear as not doing enough. Why even play the game?
I’ve been battling religious oppression since grade school when I took on the Catholics who tried to keep the best seats on the bus and the Methodists who were making fun of my best friend in church. (Typical 'Piscy – getting beat up on by Catholics and Protestants alike! :rolleyes: ) That’s over 30 years. It’s time for a break.
Right now, I’m sorely tempted to say, “You’re on your own” because I don’t need this any more.
CJ
Oy! Pardon me, dear Miller, for a brief post.
You, Siege, are doing just fine. Nobody except you is asking you to shoulder the entire burden of liberal Christianity all by yourself. If you are following your conscience–and you are–then you should tell your religion’s critics, including me, to take a hike. If you don’t want to do anything for gays or for science education, then don’t. While it would be nice, you don’t owe us a thing.
And if I may be so bold, you are way, way, waaayy too other-directed. You keep mentioning that you are often on the verge of suicidal depression because of external pressures. While I hope you obtain professional help and medication to get that fixed, I would also urge you to a use a bit of advice I’ve found helpful.
Tell everybody else to fuck off. Seriously. I’ve found the surest way to happiness is never to rely on other people for my emotional wellbeing. I have a partner whom I love very much, but we’re together because we give other happiness and love, not because we “need” each other. I hang out with friends because I enjoy them, and I’m equally happy (sometimes more so) when I’m alone.
Find the things that give you the happy, and do them, and do not give a wet slap about what anyone else thinks. If churching it up gives you pleasure, then get on your knees and pray all you like. If you like to hang out with Wiccans, then do it and don’t care if the Stiffly Stiffersons in your congregation don’t agree. Fuck 'em!
And by all means, tell loudmouthed atheists like me where to stick it. Stand up for yourself! As much as Sol Grundy annoys me, I also have quite the crush on him because he never hesitates to argue with me and to stand his ground for his beliefs. I’d rather have him for an enemy than to have any number of namby-pambies as “friends.”
You have no obligations to anyone other than yourself and the people you choose to commit to. And your conscience is answerable to nobody but you. If you are doing what you believe to be right, then you should tell everybody else, including me, to fuck right off.
You obviously believe I am attacking you in some way, and that is not my intention at all. I thought you had said “what can we do” but it seems you are doing it. I think it’s wonderful that your minister is speaking out. This morning I saw a headline that an Islamic leader has said how the Koran condemns terrorism, which is wonderful too.
I’m not even against trligion - I stopped believing for purely logical reasons, and I had a very happy religous upbringing. Of course I was raised in a religion where our rules don’t apply to anyone outside the club.
But in the last five years (and more) I’ve seen things in this country go downhill, and it is driven by people who call themselves Christians. The good examples that you and your minister are setting don’t seem to be helping. So I ask you as someone on the right side of this argument and as someone whose faith these people shouldn’t be able to question - what do you say to them , or to those who are uncertain, to convince them that God does not discriminate?
For every tolerant line of the Bible I can find, I can also find an intolerant one. Honestly, if I suddenly believed that the Bible was the true word of God, I’d have a hard time holding on to the principles that both you and I believe in. Is your belief in these principles based on faith? That’s one of the better applications of faith I can imagine, but it seems as convincing to the opposition as faith in God is to me as an atheist.
You misunderstand where I’m coming from when I say this. That bad people use religion as a cloak for their bad ways is not an excuse for religion. It is a condemnation of religion. I cannot put it better than this:
As gobear said, you and other nice, tolerant religious people would be nice, tolerant people even if you weren’t religious. One does not need a cloak to do good. One does need a cloak to do evil, and religion provides a cloak.
Of course, there are other cloaks: nationalism, or secular faiths like communism, for example.
I don’t like them either.
When Reeder starts a thread like this and says “Hey, look at this evil thing a person from your house has done” the responses from other people from that house are that the person is not typical of those who live in the house and that Reeder is being a stereotyping prick. It is certainly true that not everyone from the house is evil, but it is also true that the house has walls of dogma, walls of dogma can hide evil things and you are helping to hold the walls up.
Welcome aboard! You’ll find that most of us are (or try to be) a lot less close-minded than we are made out to be.
I disagree. It is a condemnation of that individual who, without some religion to misuse would simply find some other tool.
Look, folks, all I’ll say is I came home from work today to find flowers on my doorstep, sent by the rector of my church and I’m pretty sure it’s not because I quoted his sermon earlier today. When was the last time you Atheists did that for me?
CJ
In case you didn’t read the other two pages of the article, it’s clearly explained that the problem can be a lot bigger than just heading out to another pharmacy. There are pharmacists who take the scripts, refuse to fill them and refuse to give them back.
From the article posted:
I’m glad you said that there were other cloaks. I think beliefs in certainty of all types encourage those who might resist evil to follow those who do it, since it can’t be evil if God or dialectical materialism requires it. It’s a tool for the evil and an excuse for those who follow.
“You never ask questions, When God’s on your side.” - Dylan
One less tool would be a good thing.