Greer gets death threats and kicked out of his church.

The BBQ Pit
141

I personally have reached a point, like Siege, where I despair of ever being able to communicate a single thing about my religious faith. As I ranted about in a Pit thread a few weeks ago, the damn evangelicals and fundamentalists have coopted the discussion to the point where every agnostic, atheist, pagan, and left-handed invisiblepinkunicornitarian on the Straight Dope seems to think that the terms and categories that they use are the only ones acceptable for discussion.

I. Do. Not. Fucking. Worship. The. Bible. I believe it to be a compendium of myth, legend, poetry, proberbial wisdom writings, history, prophetic and apocalyptic writings, correspondence, polemic biography, and God knows what else. I think it can be critically studied. When read in the light of such studies, I believe it gives some excellent spiritual insight, along with an assortment of crap left over from barbaric days in the past and palmed off as “what God said” which is probably as much “what God said” as Jerry Falwell’s statement that God told him that the gays, liberals, and activist judges caused 9/11.

I would ask those few fair-minded people who remain members here to take into consideration the fact that not everybody who belongs to churches long antedating the St. James Dobson Church of Divine Homophobia and the First Apostolic Theocratic Church and Used Car Sales, Inc. believe the sort of crap that gets people ticked off enough to start Pit threads and provokes sophomores who have just discovered atheism to start threads in Great Debates propounding their brand new insights.

See you in GQ and Café Society, where I may have a chance of enjoying this place.

142

I seem to have hit on a sore spot.

Now calm down.

I know very well you don’t worship the Bible. I know very well you would not let a simple reading of some words written 2000 or more years ago lead you to do something evil. I don’t think I’ve ever implied that. I hope not. I also know you would never oppress anyone, or make them feel bad about their beliefs or lack of, and whole bunches of other good things.

But the assholes who do worship the Bible are out there, and they are getting stronger. When I was a kid whenever I saw a minister on the news, he was speaking out for social justice, perhaps risking his life for the rights of others. Now whenever I see a minister on TV chances are he’s complaining how the libruls are destroying marriage, or how Christians are oppressed by not being able to put creationism in textbooks, or how evil activist judges are starving people to death. Great, there are some good guys still out there, like CJ’s minister.

I’m asking you people what can we do to show these people they are wrong in terms they would understand, religous terms, and you are saying, don’t blame me, I don’t think like that.

I know you don’t buy into the entire Bible, for the very same reason I don’t buy into any of the Bible. But is your best and only argument for rejecting the bad parts is that you don’t think God would say that? If it is, we’re in serious trouble, since those who practice religion ethically have no arguments that would convince someone not already on their side.

I’m really sorry you don’t have an answer. What I was looking for were things I could say to a Christian who had been convinced by these idiots to show that there was a convincing case to be made that their very own Bible said they were wrong. Guess there aren’t any. That’s really too bad.

143

There are quotes you can use as ammo, if you want to, and they are very concise and to the point. Rather than try to remember them verbatim, here are some starting points, in the form of “catch phrases” (wording not exact).

  1. Judge not lest ye be judged… - applies to Phelps, Falwell, oh so many.
  2. False prophets, and also wolf in sheeps clothing. - applies to Phelps, Falwell, oh so many.
  3. Self righteous man - acts vs lip service
  4. Pharisee - all about hypocrisy and using religion to get or keep power.
  5. Good Samaritan - acts vs lip service.
  6. The mote in your neighbor’s eye vs the beam in your own
  7. The house divided against itself
  8. The defilers of the temple - betcha didn’t know Jesus was a righteous figher too, did ya. He kicked some serious butt that day. - referring to liars and cheats who make money of the “god industry”
  9. The entire Sermon on the Mount
  10. The ten commandments - lots there about lying, false witness, stealing, pretty much covers everything.

That should be enough to get you started. To toss it all away just because the Reverend Dickweed is an ashole, is like tossing the baby out with the bath water.
The bible has some really good pittings of the sort of people that are spewing most of the vile propoganda we see these days.

144

Siege, I haven’t heard anything from Wuerl-y Bird, what has his stance been?

145

My bf read this thread and he says that I’m too harsh in my posts.

Sigh.

146

Well, if my words are the same as theirs (You forgot to mention Robert Byrd, genious) then I would be discriminatory. Equating birth control to Jim Crow laws? Never thought of it that way.
Testy, great point in post #117. I dug so far up my ass my eyes hurt and couldn’t even manufacture a counter-response. Double-point given. :slight_smile:

147

And I wish more people were like you - understanding that many posters here are. And actually you sum up my position quite well.

Maybe the answer to my question is this: for things affecting ourselves, we need no evidence or proof. Faith is fine. For things you want to force other people to do or not do, you do need proof. And personal experience don’t cut it in as a reason to tell me what to do.

Will the heavy religionists admit they don’t have certainty? Alas, I doubt it. But it would be interesting to try.

148

Their words were about how unfair it was to force restaurant owners and the like to serve people they didn’t want to serve. To be fair, they didn’t consider it a life and death issue, but then they didn’t take people’s money and then refuse to serve them either. Or take their order, make them wait, and then refuse to serve them. (It took Denny’s to do that.)

Oddly enough, the justification for this was personal freedom. I don’t want to go back to that kind of thinking, though the parties discriminated against will be different this go round.

149

Thanks for the extra point! Very kind of you.
It is unfortunate that the reasoning and reasonable theists such as yourself and Seige and Polycarp are such decent folks and wind up being ranted on for the sins of the Falwells and Benny Hinns and the like.
Thing is, the real fundy types wouldn’t be caught dead in here except for maybe a drive-by. I believe the last one I saw was His4ever and s/he didn’t last long.

So, what to do? The last time I got on a fundy rant I mentioned that I don’t really hate the fundys, I fear them. Living in Saudi as I do, I can look around any day and see what religion does once it gets in control. Schools are dumbed down to the lowest-common-denominator and students pass because they can memorize the Koran. Critical thinking instruction is avoided at all costs and students graduate knowing nothing useful. After discovering that religious knowledge is not really salable in the job market, the graduates become religious police and the next generation is destroyed as well. Women are subugated and political decisions are made through a filter of religious correctness. Adultery and gay sex are punished by public execution.

When I read the news from the US, it alarms me to see politicians playing the God card so frequently, exactly as they do here. As it seems to be a winning card, the politicians keep doing it. Not one of the politicians seem to realize or care that the same thing that happened in Afghanistan can happen in the US as well.

All the best

Testy

150

Nothing I have said in conversations has been successful as far as I know. Many have been taught that if someone tries to use Biblical passages to show them the error in their thinking, it is “the devil quoting Scripture.” It is as if they are brain-washed.

As always, I’m for organizing. But it doesn’t have to be just liberal Christians who come together against this movement toward theocracy.

These people don’t just live is “our houses” – meaning Christians. They threaten all of us who wish to preserve democracy. It is not up to other Christians to get them in line.

Their beliefs are not my business anyway. My concern is in breaking their stronghold on the government.

151

Another Christian criticizes the Schindlers’ supporters. Voyager, if you want arguments to counter Fundamentalist Christians, check Great Debates. We’ve had a few hundred or so and I’ve posted in a bunch of them, citing the Bible. I’ve got too much to do and I’m too sick of getting lumped in with people whose beliefs I’ve rejected to do it for you. I’m still fed up.

CJ

152

Get off your pity pot and don’t forget to flush. No one has lumped you in with anyone. What has been done is to ask you and other like you to make more noise. It’s great that you’re working for social justice. But if you want the public face of Christianity to be reflective of your idea of Christ’s teachings, you have to make it so. Otherwise the SBC saying the Jews have to be converted to be saved, and Falwell saying liberals caused 9/11 and Dobson accusing homosexuals of destorying America will continue to shape the image of the faith.

153

You know, I was going to take about 20 minutes of my lunch break and compose a nice, well-reasoned post about how the media goes for the most eye-catching, most out of the ordinary stuff, which is why, for example, White Supremacists visiting town gets more coverage than the annual conference held by my church’s Diocesan Commission on Racism. I was even going to put in a word of apology to Voyager. In light of this, I’ve changed my mind.

Up yours, Homebrew!! What have you, personally, done to combat the public’s association of NAMBLA with homosexuals or the HIV infected members of your own community who insist it’s their right to have unprotected sex without informing their partners? I suspect you have as much in common with them as Dobson and company have with me.

I think it’s about time I followed gobear’s advice and told you to take a hike. I’d tell you to take a fucking hike, but I’ve done that once or twice, and it’s far too much fun.

CJ

154

Watch out for the poison ivy on those fucking hikes, CJ.

It’s so damn hard for us rude atheists having you and Poly around. Can’t you round up some close-minded, ignorant theists for us to beat on?

155

I suspect you’re too involved in you wallowing right now to react with your characteristic calm and reason. I’m going to write off most of your post as emotional steam blowing and not worry about it much. But this part I do want to respond to.

Just by being out at work; by just being me, a regular guy; by not wearing ass-less chaps to walk my dog; and by speaking out whenever I encounter homophobia I combat stereotypes every time I step out my door. On a larger scale, I write my congresscritters, I contribute to the HRC and I volunteer for canvassing during elections.

That’s all we’re really saying you folks need to do. You don’t personally have to be the one in front of the television cameras. You don’t personally have to run for public office. You don’t personally have to demonstrate against Phelps. But you as a group need to find a way to be more visible.

156

You seem quite attached, however, to your stereotype of Christians on SDMB!

Or do you only combat other stereotying?

157

And what, pray tell, makes you think that Siege is not already doing such?

158

Very true. The Bible has quotes for everyone - both lovely appeals to harmony and loving your fellow man and the worst sort of hate. I appreciate that our ethical friend embrace the former and reject the latter. What I don’t get is the criteria used besides non-religious ethics. Any god I’d have any desire to be close to would be just like Poly’s god. But then we get into the standard response to the problem of evil - who are we to say which of God’s words are moral or not.

Maybe we can demand evidence that god had any involvement in the writing of the words - but then the good words vanish with the bad. But I’m not quite dumb enough to go up to one of these guys and say “I’m an atheist and I’m here to lecture you on morals.”

BTW, it seems a bit condescending to go up to a Bible believer, who has read it no doubt more often than I have, and give the impression that I think they never bothered to look at the “good” passages. Their judging criteria is different from the others, and I think it all boils down to faith.

I guess you are right. But change comes most easily from within, and those who are undeniably devout Christians are much closer to being within than you and I. I was hoping for some religiously based convincing refutation, but I guess I give religion too much credit. It is kind of an amplifier, helping good people do better and bad people do worse. I’ll stick to my low-gain atheism with the benefit of never being certain about anything, and always being able to admit I was wrong.

159

And what, pray tell, makes you think I don’t know she does? I’ve acknowledged she does. She’s the one who took the criticisms personally, even when they weren’t directed at her. Is the dual use of “you” as both a singular and plural pronoun really that confusing?

ZombiesAteMyBrain, can you show me any evidence that I’ve stereotyped Christians on this board or are you just spouting nonsense for the sake of getting your post count up?

160

I agree with Voyager in much of this, but I don’t see the need to take his remonstrances personally. I, as a Christian, do not feel to blame for the nutcases out there who use a religion to support their own agendas–what those people know of “Faith” could fit in a thimble, as far as I’m concerned. However–

He is correct in saying that the Religious Right has the floor and the mike and are giving all of us Christians a bad name and rep.

And from where I’m sitting–we are letting them get away with murder, daily.

TV does not lend itself to nuanced debates and intricate spiritual discussions–and we have the attention spans of gnats. Deep thinking and tortuous decisions don’t work on TV, but black and white rigidity goes over well–it looks “strong”.

But I also feel, and this is one reason I am struggling so much with church right now–that there are many, many people out there who CRAVE black and white, who pine for moral certainty, who actively resist critical thinking.

No, they are NOT here–that would be odd, indeed! But they are out there and they long to be sheep. They seek comfort and peace–no matter the price. Unquestioning faith is one such price. Frankly, if that is what they want, fine–but religion should not mix with secular laws. And since that line has been crossed, and the pendulum is swinging back to prayer in school etc–I am standing with the godless on this. If someone feels the need to belong to a rigid, intolerant faith–that is their right. But their right ends when they try to inflict that way of thinking on others via the courts or even culturally. I see this nation becoming almost backwards in it’s social policies, mores and actions–and I see it becoming more stridently righteous and intolerant, all in the name of religion.

IMO, the Christian church in this country is in real trouble–I belong to a liberal, tolerant mainstream Prostestant community church, affiliated with the United Church of Christ–and I love those commercials with the bouncers etc.

But it is a drop in the bucket against the relentess deluge of Falwells, Dobsons, and that white guy who really pisses me off on Sundays at work (young, dark hair, Southern accent–no brain).

Yes, CJ’s church is doing an excellent job re: homophobia, as is my church re: racism.
But we are lights under many bushels–we need better PR, as does Christianity, IMO. We need to let our lights shine. And we don’t–we really don’t.

I don’t see Voyager’s or gobear’s criticisms as all that harsh or nasty. They have an outsiders view–and it’s pretty pathetic. The tolerant arms of the church are almost invisible–so the temptation is to paint all with the “jerk” brush. It isn’t correct or right, but there is a kernel of truth there, because that is all that is heard/seen.
I have been asking myself, the same thing–WHERE are the “good” Christians outside of the hospice? Where is the rebuttal of the nutcase talking religious heads re: poor Terri Schiavo? Why is no face time given to them? Why are they not demanding face time?
Sojourner.com is a good site, and a place where one can check out activist, tolerant (I prefer to call them thinking Christians) folks. But again, it’s so small compared to the Religious Right’s Machinery.

PS-for the posters who are :eek: that some do not consider Catholics to be Christians…my fundamentalist home school neighbors think that way–and the wife is a former Catholic! :eek: indeed!