See ? We’re breaking down already. It’s not about games at all, it’s about the nature of language and communication. You may think everyone around you gets exactly what you mean exactly how you mean it at all times, and that you understand exactly what they mean, but unless every word you hear or utter is on a strictly factual and immediate level, you’re wrong. You cannot possibly be right without possessing a superpower. Even shrinks who are trained in trying to achieve this level of understanding, objectivity and clarity in their speech aren’t that good.
If someone says they don’t love you, take them at face value. Don’t delude yourself into thinking they really do. That’s stalker territory.
I agree with Oakminster to a point. I think she loves him; I think she isn’t in fairy love with him but he is in fairy love with her; since they’re having sex it’s not a purely platonic love on either side; but what we can’t know from the information given is whether either part will be happy with this, whether he’ll be happy with her the first time it’s her who is in bed puking her guts out, and whether she’ll be happy spending the rest of his life with him or will at some point decide to go chase a different rainbow.
The decision whether to accept those last two risks is theirs to take, though. I know I wouldn’t want to marry someone I was in fairy love with, but that’s me: I’ve seen too many cases where the end of the fairy love brought a kick to the butt and a slammed door (including one of my own relationships, and boy am I glad I had not married him, as he’d been asking for months).
She says that she doesn’t. It is not a very smart or mature thing to assume that people are lying if they say they don’t love you.
Dio, there’s many versions of love. In English it’s been reduced to a word and a half, but other languages have different words; we are using “fairy love” to indicate the love she doesn’t have, but it is not the only kind of love there is. You do not spend months taking care of someone for no pay, no duty and no love. Do you love your wife the same way as your children? You children the same as your mother? Your friends the same as your grandmother?
She said she doesn’t feel the same way about him as he does about her. It is dangerous to start deciding people don’t mean what they say mean in those situations.
We’re not breaking down at all; we simply disagree.
She doesn’t say she doesn’t love him. She says she can’t say the words. As some persons have pointed out, her actions and her words seem at variance anyway.
Consider this. Let’s reverse some of the aspects of the hypothetical. Suppose that Don had ignored his friends’ counsel at six-month mark of his relationship with Mary and asked her to marry him, and she’d said yes, matching all his protestations of love with apparently equal fervor. He has his car accident at the same time as in the first hypo. But Mary Prime doesn’t step up. She doesn’t come to see him at the hospital, but instead only calls Dave and Jenny to get updates. She doesn’t insist on taking him home. She doesn’t care for him during his long, painful convalescence. Don doesn’t see her again until rehab is well under way and he is no longer disturbing to see.
Who actually loves Don: Original Mary or Mary Prime?
Neither.
A distinction without a difference.
Your hypothetical does not provide that information. We only know what she says, and in your original hypothetical she says she doesn’t love him (and I don’t accept your quibble that there is any difference between saying, “I don’t feel the same way about you,” and saying, 'I don’t love you." If you’re now going to try to adjust your hypothetical to stipulate that she really does love him, then there’s no point in posing any questions about it). Don should not try to play mimnd reader and decide how she really feels. he should give her the basic courtesy and respect of taking her at her word, and not insisting that she do something she has indicated she would only do for his sake and not for her own.
Incidentally, I find the option of asking her to sign a prenup to be laughingly insulting. He’s the one who wants to get married, not her. Bad enough he can’t respect her feelings or take her at her word when she tells him straight up she doesn’t feel that way about him, but it takes balls the size of churchbells to then demand a prenup after badgering her into a marriage she didn’t want in the first place. If she’s going to go along with marrying this guy just because he’s such a good buddy, then she’s at least entitled to be treated equally in the marriage.
It seems to me that you are discounting Mary Prime’s words because her actions belie them. Yes?
If that is the case, I see two possibilities to explain the dissonance. Mary Prime is lying to Don when she says she loves him; she is self-deceived when she tells herself she loves Don; or she has a definition of love that doesn’t match up with yours.
Why can it not be the case that Original Mary is self-deceived about the nature of her feelings, as I have suggested? Or, as Oak suggested, why can it not be that she is operating from an erroneous definition of love? Why do her actions have less weight than her words?
I’m not asking whether Don should marry Mary at this point, by the way. Even if one grants the self-deceived or mistaken-about-the-nature-of-love options, it’s clear that Mary has to do some work on herself.
Exactly. People can be remarkably stupid about love, and expect love to be some great white knight, spouting romance and sperm and riding on white horses bringing flowers. When a strong, hearty friendship is the basis and foundation of love in many cases.
Renew the proposal. A prenup should be there no matter what.
Speculation about how she really feels is worthless. The onlty decent thing to do is take her at her word, not decide for yourself how she really, secretly feels. That’s creeper ideation.
All I care about is whether Don should marry either Mary and make merry. The first Mary says she doesn’t feel what Don feels. This should make her not a candidate for marriage. The second demonstrates she doesn’t feel what Don feels. This should make her not a candidate for marriage, with the very consistent message of “Don’t marry people who don’t feel about you the way you feel about them.”
And yes, I’d say the second Mary was likely lying. People do lie. The first Mary had no reason to be lying. The second Mary has ever reason to be lying. Don should dump both and go find a woman who feels passion and love for him. The first woman says she doesn’t. The second woman shows she doesn’t. Words and actions have to match to make the person someone to marry.
I think I’m in love with Mary.
That kind of self-analytic honesty, backed up by deep caring just pushes my buttons.
The sex is there, the caring is there, the honesty is there and Mary is a cutey.
Fuck “love.”
Right. So let’s look at her exact words, as her paragraph of dialogue was what I put the most thought into and is deliberately ambiguous. Don declares his love in flowery terms, produces a diamond the size of Jackson, Tennessee, and asks Mary to marry him. Her reply:
The very first sentence is her stating that she is inclined to say yes. Any hesitation is clearly not for her own sake.
There are at least three reasonable interpretations of this.
- Mary is certain that her feelings for Don should not be as passionate and romantic, and she refuses to lie about that.
- Mary feels passionate and romantic feelings for Don, but feels incapable of expressing herself in the conventional way (doubtlessly because of her own fears, neuroses, history, and such.
- Mary cannot define her feelings for Don even to herself.
As I said, I think all three of those interpretations are reasonable. But Mary’s actions make (2) and (3) more likely to be true. She acts like a woman in love.
To me this speaks to both to her integrity and her feelings for him. There are clear advantages to marrying Don. He’s a millionaire who is both deeply in love and deeply beholden to her. She’ll surely see a huge uptick in her standard of living if she walks down the aisle with him. Now, perhaps she is just so righteous that she refuses to marry him under false pretenses. But she seems more concerned with his feelings than her own profit.
Her word is not “I do not love you.” If her feelings are clear on the matter, she could easily have said so.
Asking her why she doesn’t feel able to say “I love you” is not playing mind reader. It’s the opposite of playing mind reader. Nor is it taking her at her word to categorically refuse to renew the proposal, because her very first words upon being presented the obscene blood diamond were “I want to say yes.”
I am sending you a bill for my new pun-o-matic; you burned out the old one by engaging in paronomasia without warning.
Those things are expensive. Please be more cautious in the future.
Also fuck respecting her feelings, I take it.
Skald, if she tells him she doesn’t feel the same way about him as he does about her, then the only healthy, decent thing for him to do is respect that and move on, not try to interpret her words in the most self-serving way possible. They require no interpretation beyond face value. If you’re going to keep trying to backload the hypothetical to get the answers you want, then there isn’t any point in calling it a poll.