I think we’ve identified the problem. I’ve never said that anyone should hear “no” and think “probably yes”. I’ve always been clear that I am talking about a subset of women. I have no idea how you jump from what I’ve said to “Take every no as probably yes”.
It doesn’t matter how many. You use as an explanation why guys can be confused sometimes. That’s the point! Don’t be confused- don’t think a no is ever yes! Just take no as no!
Well, unless you want to come out and clarify that your posts weren’t on-topic and stupid, they were actually entirely tangential and pointless, you were talking about MeanOldLady, is who you were talking about, who, unless there’s another dramatic plot twist right at the death of this clusterfuck, you do not know anything about. It’s not like you tricked anybody when you started talking about a subset of women here in this thread about one woman.
This logic is no different from “Don’t even have a beer if you are going to drive and you’ll never drive drunk” or “Don’t smoke a joint and you’ll never get addicted”. It’s certainly valid logic and there’s nothing wrong with living your life that way. But most of us can go through life having a beer at dinner without driving drunk, and most men can play the stupid games that some women want to play without raping anyone.
If this were a thread about a kind of beer that knew what your BAC was and told you what your BAC was and told you whether or not to drink it, you would be not making double sense now.
A most guys think they play it better than they do.
Someone posted a pointless post in M.POINTLESS.SIMS? Break out the pitchforks and torches!
If my ace in the hole was that I had no point all along, I think I’d be a little less triumphant about it, but it takes all kinds, I guess.
But even in your example, the subset of women who say no, and later tell you they wanted sex but didn’t want you to think they were sluts, they still said no. And meant no.
Or are you saying that when she said no she meant ‘yes, but only if there was a way to have sex without being thought a slut’?
Mr. Chitwood you have been nothing but brilliant in this thread. I salute you, Sir! 
At the risk of being flogged here, I think the more detailed answer is that it’s a judgment call based on the situation. I’ve noticed some (maybe a small fraction of) girls do that “soft no” thing and actually are going for a yes. The trick is reading that correctly, and if you’re given a second “no”, then obviously just stop. I imagine this is hard to really be confident about, so if you want to err on the side of caution, then always take that no for a no (this is what I do).
But I can back up the beleaguered fellows here in that I’ve definitely had that next-week conversation of “why didn’t we fuck that night?” –> “because you said no” –> “oh you silly, couldn’t you tell I wanted to?”
Uh, I guess not.
I’ve also been with a girl where it went something like this:
- we’re on the couch watching movie
- we kiss for a few minutes
- she pulls away
- I stop and back away
- she attacks me with a violent kiss
- we make out and she yanks me on top of her
- suddenly she starts pushing me off whispering “no, no”
- I dismount sheepishly saying “oh sorry what’s wrong?”
- she sighs dramatically, and we resume watching movie silently for about 3 minutes
- then she puts her hand on my crotch and starts undoing my pants…
Upon later discussion, she said she had been hoping I would just take her and overpower her.
Anyway, despite a few experiences to the contrary, I will still always take no for no even with conflicting signals, but damn, I can sympathize with guys who are unsure about the signals and go for it mistakenly!
[note that MeanOldLady’s story is not such an example, because the signals were super duper obviously no]
But see- you did take her no as a no and then had a conversation about it. With that info about this person that you gained through a productive conversation you know the expectations she and you both have.
You can’t assume, before the conversation, that a no is not a no.
This has the additional benefit of punishing bad, rape-culture-enforcing behavior on the part of women–namely, “making no mean yes, but make me”.
Someone needs to give her a book on how to effectively be in a relationship with consensual power exchange.
This is where you lose me a little–given that the risk of taking “no” at face value is either “don’t get laid” or “she eventually stops playing coy”, but the risk of pushing is “potentially raping someone”, I sympathize with finding the “coy no” irritating but not with any attempt to power past a no.
IMHO you handled the situation as well as it could have been in your example.
This is, I think, a fantastic summary.
There are different types of “pushing”, and I think some gentle non-verbal equivalent of an “Are you sure?” is probably OK. But anything past that is asking for a quick trip to Rapechargeville, I agree.
Thanks, I do tend to be a cautious one. I did forget to mention that during our little talk afterwards, the girl said that she probably would have left me high and dry that night for being so “passive”, if she herself hadn’t been so horny. I only ended up dating her for a couple of weeks - she was a bit… crazy.
And this returns us to rule #1. Don’t stick it in the crazy or let it stick in you. People who say no when they mean yes or maybe? Potentially crazy. Maybe poorly socialized or something, but definitely not safe and secure in their own sexuality and its ramifications.