Hail the US troops, change membername in YELLOW RIBBON. Or get banned.

The BBQ Pit
441

This is the worst argument made in relation to the Iraq war.

You guys seem to honestly expect that you can rewrite history. Do you really expect any of us to believe that on Date X there was only one reason behind us going to war with Iraq and that was reason A. And then on Date Y there was another one reason behind us going to war with Iraq and on that date it was reason B?

That’s not how it happened. If anyone here actually listened to speeches (the State of the Union being a big one) leading up to the war on Iraq there was a spectrum of issues being mentioned from the very beginning. We talked nuclear, we talked terrorism, we talked chemical, biological, we talked human, we talked illegal conventional weapons, we even talked more mundane issues like Oil for Food scams and et cetera.

Before the war started the issue that got the most play was WMDs. The reason for this was we had to prove Saddam still had WMDs to get UN approval, but we never said that our only goal in Iraq was to stop WMD proliferation. Even the UN nations that opposed the Iraq war have from time to time condemned Saddam Hussein’s human right’s violations. But there was a great lie that they could not act because resolutions (violated and being redone in slightly different form every few years) passed previously didn’t implicitly state anything could be done unless WMD were found.

So from that perspective it’s obvious why WMD was seen as such a big reason. But everytime you guys try to rewrite history and say that WMD was the first reason then Bush “changed history” and tried to say he was doing it for some other reason you’re engaging in some pretty disgusting hypocrisy.

442

He hasn’t got the intellect to comprehend what you have said.

Dogs can’t talk Gaspode. Keep it that way.

443

That is why the gods gave us Vodka.

444

Precisely what I’m talking about, Ryan. And how many countries fell prey to Soviet tanks, walls and machine guns, only to be swallowed up whole and made part of the Soviet Union. On the other hand, none of the countries elucidator mentioned have been absorbed into and made part of the United States.

And, if I may be so bold, just what is wrong with a desire to promote democracy throughout the world? Has there ever been a democracy overthrown by the free will of its people?

Are we, when we think about it, to put a greater value on a country maintaining its culture than upon the wishes of its own people? Is it better to take the position that a harsh, cruel and repressive culture is better and more deserving of existence simply by virtue of its long history, than is a culture which has been modified to suit the will of its people rather than its rulers?

Like I said in my post to elucidator, I wouldn’t favor invading countries willy-nilly in order to create democracies, but I’d like to know why so many of the people here seem to think it’s wrong and presumptuous of us to want to promote democracy elsewhere in the world and/or to think that it’s better for people to live under a despotic dictator not of their own choosing than in a democracy under which they are ruled by leaders of their own choosing and and who are answerable to them for the actions they take.

445

I’m not so given to believe that our reason for exerting force around the world has anything to do with democracy. A history prof. told us that every war was about money, and that any pretense of being about anything else (religion or other principals) was hogwash. At the time, I thought it was a bit of fluff lecture, but I increasingly think he was dead on.

446

Oh, gee, I had no idea it was such a simple choice. Of course, I prefer democracies, with picket fences and Starbucks franchises, over despotism. Really, that certainly clarifies the issues, obviously I’ve been wrong all along.

(Have I got a sign hanging round my neck says “Dumfuk”?)

Promoting democracy is one thing, a full scale military invasion is quite another, in the same way a coy flirtation differs from being raped by a freight train!

447

Of course not, chumster. I’m speaking of the great many participants on this board who seem to feel we have no right to think that another culture would be better off with a democracy.

Yes, I understand this as well. That’s why I specifically said I wouldn’t favor invading a country simply for the purpose of converting it into a democracy. But many posters here (the SDMB in its entirety, that is) seem to think that even the most cruel and repressive culture is more legitimate and desirable simply by virtue of its history and long existence than a democratic one that might replace it.

448

The US doesn’t have any interest in establishing democracies anywhere. They want to lay their hands on foreign capital and establish foreign markets. It’s all about money. It’s ALWAYS about money.

449

You do know that Bush’s middle east, near east democracy initiative is down the crapper don’t you?
US retreats from Middle East democracy plan (December 8, 2004)

In order for freight train rape to work, you’ve got to get full penetration. We’ve failed to do that.

450

Loincloth cladDevilsknewruns through the thread in all of his 300 lb. glory singing Frankie Goes to Hollywood–“When two tribes go to war…”
Shit is getting primitive in here…

War, what is it good for…?

Say it again!

451

That’s the amazing thing about Gaspode, the Wonder Dog. He can talk.

The thing is, SA, you can’t force people into democarcy, strange as it may seem. It must come from its own volition. I know people in Spain who still think things were better druing the Franco years. Less crime, everyone had a job, things were a lot cheaper. Of course, crime rates never showed up, because Guardia Civil shot criminals without due process and tossed the bodies on the city dump. But it doesn’t matter that you tell that to people, they still long for the good old days.
And there is a significant minority in Russia who long for the communist days. As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water…

452

I love the term “market democracy.” It’s classic Orwell doublespeak. Marketocracy is what they hoped for. They were already bragging about denying France and Germany access to Iraqi markets. Our war, our profit. Anyone who thinks this was about establishing democracy is a fucking rube. Conversations in that vein are a waste of fucking time, like discussing whether or not the dogs were really talking to Son of Sam. Why bother discussing the merits of your self-serving delusions?

453

And as I keep saying, Dogs, don’t talk.

454

It just never ends…

455

Yes, I do understand that, Gaspode. (I’ve been referring to you as “Gaspode” rather the “The Gaspode” as I read once that you wanted to change your name so as to drop the “The” … so to speak. :slight_smile:

But at any rate, this is why I said that Iraq will have the opportunity for a democracy, rather than stating simply that it will have a democracy. I know that democracies must run of their own volition – but of course without the opportunity for a democracy many peoples have no recourse but to live under dictatorial governments, and it’s this opportunity that I value in the case of Iraq.

456

But that’s even weaker, SA. You’re saying we went through all this shit not even to establish a democracy, but merely to allow for the opportunity? And if it doesn’t happen, we just say “Ooopsy! My bad!”?

It doesn’t strike you that the risk and investment require that the prospects for success be just about 100%. Can we go around saying “We’re going to invade your country and remove its governance, because your chances to achieve democracy (as we define it) exceeds 50%. Congratulations! Please extend our heartfelt condolences to collateral damagees. Duck.”

457

My godess is 'bout 5’6"/9", 34/28/34, over twenty and a bisexual nympho mute, who loves to clean and cook in what little free time she has left from her other activities. Still looking but I’d be willing to worship at that altar anytime.

Hey now! I know what you’re thinking, but hope’s last thing to go. :slight_smile:

458

Hola, Gaspode, how’s your boxer doing? I seem to recall we got our pups at about the same time. If yours turned out anything like my Silky, you’re one lucky guy. She’s nestled on the side of my chair as I type – velcro has nothing on her.

Then again, wasn’t it Seneca – the Spanish-born one – that said the more I know humans, the more I love my dog? So perhaps it has nothing to do with luck and everything to do with us.

Anyway, would that I could see SA under the same light as you do, 'cuase from where I’m sitting best I glean is a guy who extends his hand out in order to pull you over into Fantasyland. Sure, he’s fairly polite and puts forth long scrolls, so in that sense I suppose you can give him an A for effort…but content? Please, my friend, reality check, he’s as brainwashed as as any other Bushbot on this board or elsewhere.

Exhibit A: read his current exchange with elucidator in this very thread. Not sure whether to laugh or cry when I read same. So I yawn instead.

Exhibits B-Infinity: Any other political discussion he’s been involved in since joining this board. Specifically w/regards to the whole Iraq clusterfuck, he’s not budged an inch – if anything, counter to the deluge of facts he’s been bombarded with, he keeps hardening his delussional stance. Much like his Supreme Miseader I might add.

As I’ve said repeatedly as of late, no can or will do. And that’s to keep engaging in throughly futile exchanges with fans of this Administration.

Now, if you can show me one post and I do mean one, where SA – or Bricker, or Shodan, or Scylla, or Sam Stone to name a few other talky, fairly polite Bushbots, with over room temperature IQs – where any of the aforementioned concedes the blidingly obvious fact that this whole Iraq enterprise is nothing but a neocon wetdream – and a murderous one at that – I’ll reconsider my position and rejoin the debate. And the chances are? Somewhere between slim and none, 'cuase as you well know we’ve been at this for almost three fuckin’ years now. It’s godammed boring, repetitive and frustating to the nth degree. Much like the saying goes, my head hurts when I bang it into a wall, I’ve found it best to simply stop doing it. All the “I told you sos” in the world don’t cut it either, for there’s is no satisfaction in seeing reality unfold just as painfully as most of the world predicted it would.

So what’s left? Life’s simple pleasures. And the eternal quest for mute bisexual nympho godesess and/or a World Cup for La Furia Roja – whichever comes first. And I have an inkling the odds on the MBNG are much better. :wink:

Other than that, let them keep pounding sand. My money’s safely on the sand – it’ll drink as much blood as they have to give. And then some.

Here’s hoping and wishing the New Year will be much better than the one we’re about to leave behind. Don’t think that’s asking for much.

Un abrazo,

~Red

459

Starving Artist:

I have a question for you.
You appear to think that at least one of the reasons why Iraq was invaded was to bring democracy. You seem to think this is okay. Let’s just assume that this is true.
Based on that, you then would have no problem with, say Spain (who recently took steps to recognize homosexual marriage) making allegiances with folks in the blue states to invade Jesusland to bring “equality and freedom” to those down-trodden homosexuals (who were recently reduced to second-class citizens in some states), would you? You wouldn’t pick up arms (or even a dull butter knife) to repel the invading forces, would you? After all, they, and even a few of your own countrymen, are coming to bring you freedom! And equality!
For anyone to say they would be opposed to such a noble mission sure would tell me lot about the “American” mindset, particularly, those in the middle red states. But I’m sure someone as noble as yourself would be on the side of right and help with the invasion, no?
And RedFury:

Though the task of diminishing such a mountain of stupidity may be arduous, a task comparable to moving the Himalayas to the East 100 KM with the aid of nothing more than a teaspoon, I implore you to not take such an approach.

460

luci, luci, luci…you are driving me crazy! What is wrong with you, my boy? How can I make clear, in some way that I apparently haven’t been able to do up to now even though I’ve tried, that we didn’t go into Iraq for the sole or even primary purpose of ensuring democracy there, nor would I have ever favored going there for the sole purpose of establishing or trying to establish a democracy there?