I agree with all that you have said and I do not question the decision. In fact, before I state anymore, there is a great likelihood that Alde was just a troll. Also, he undoubtedly refused to cooperate with the immense understanding he received from the mods. However, sometimes, people make points for the wrong reasons.
My main point was that to many in the ME, civil discussion is a forgone conclusion, just as it is for many in America. The answer is war and violence and the hypocrisies that I pointed out represent examples of the tremendous obstacles the two sides will face if peaceful dialog is ever going to take place.
I cannot help look at the last part of your post and the charges (all of them true) against Alde.
“Inconsiderate of others”: Alde was indeed inconsiderate and obnoxious, but sometimes those who responded to him were the same. If he was sincere, what he was trying to say was that inviting people to an international message board that allows members to talk about U.S. soldiers killing people he cares about as heroes, is also inconsiderate to his feelings. We all may not agree with him, but that is the essence of my entire point, he does not see things the way we do. He condemns us for claiming to be an international board, but things that hurt our sensibilities are what qualifies as being a “jerk”, not those that hurt his sensibilities. I am sure, most Dopers can agree that what is incosiderate depends on the individual messenger and recipient.
“making up evidence”- All of us could come up with 50-1000 posters and posts of people who make-up evidence, spout nasty lies, pass on urban legends and support a viewpoint when it is soundly dismissed. Discussions on religion, homosexuality, the War in Iraq, evolution and para-psychology have all been vicitms of this.
If he is indeed in the ME, or has strong roots there, he lives in a world where each side uses propaganda to suppress knowledge and, at the same time, bombs to accentuate their points. For each exchange of blows, the sides claim that it was justified because “Side A” did some dastardly deed. It has become so convuluted and messed up, that no one can even remember why the fights started in the first place.
This was the essence of my post. If this board wants to be truly international and invite people from the countires that consider themselves U.S. enemies (not just little disagreements like France) there must be an understanding of these vast differences. Among them is the touting of American soldiers who are engaged in combat as heroes, and the discussion of recruitment for the U.S. Armed Services, when discussion from the other point of view is considered being a jerk.
Never before have I been happy to see a banning. I finally came to understand why everyone hates trolls. I usually ignore them, but in this case I was transfixed by everyone’s reaction. He played his cards with such cleverness playing on our desires to understand and accept a genuine MENA point of view from an educated person while he pissed on all of us. Early on I suspected a charade on his part, and week in and out he never allayed that suspicion. In fact at one point I contemplated whether or not he could be December in drag contemptuously playing with the overt tendancy on this board to show a 'liberal" tolerance and empathy for someone who identified with the anti-American middle east population. One day I’ll check to see how long it took between December’s banning and Aldebaran’s onset on this board.
I think that Aldebaran would have stayed longer on the board if he hadn’t felt that he continually had to justify his opinion. He was continually harrassed whenever he posted - on the subject of his nationality, where he lived, his user-name etc. Seemed to me that certain people [they know who they are] were trying to push him so far that he would eventually snap and get banned. I hope they are pleased with themselves now that they have accomplished this - IMO some of them should have been banned for the things they said to/about him - but this is an example of the double standard which he pointed out - that US posters can say more extreme things without getting a warning.
Now that he has been banned, I see that the mangling of his user name and the bitching about his nationality are fair game on the board again - now that he has no right of reply. I think that this is despicable.
Just my opinion, of course - and I’m not a USA member either - so I don’t expect any respect for my views.
Now that he has been banned, I see that the mangling of his user name and the bitching about his nationality are fair game on the board again - now that he has no right of reply. I think that this is despicable.
[/quoye]
So calling him “Debbie” is despicable, but advocating shooting US soldiers is OK? Good to know.
For all the joking about banning, it’s always done as a reluctant last step. (Well, not spammers or socks, but we’re talking about serious posters.) We take just as much crap for coddling X poster of X viewpoint as we do Y. Choose yer poison, so to speak.
We’d much rather salvage posters by persuading them to observe our rather generous rules. For one reason or another, some people just can’t seem to do that. Losing those voices is never something to be celebrated, because even the most stubborn contrarian might have something to teach.
I’ll say this again even though it won’t be universally believed: there is no ‘party line’ on the SDMB. We don’t ban people because of their viewpoint. Nor do we play the tit-for-tat, ‘one from X group, so one from Y group’ game either. As a poster first and foremost, I can’t imagine a viler way to pigeonhole other posters.
I knew he was walking a narrow ridge and might be banned, but he gave us a lot to think about first.
Did he fabricate things? I don’t know. He did know something about Middle Eastern language that most English speaking people don’t.
It has never mattered to me where he lives. What has made a difference is his ability to “educate” me in the truest sense of the word. He brought my own thoughts and feelings to the surface for me to examine.
You’ve always struck me as one of the most tollerant posters here, GB. So why the vitriol? And why do you question the location of Alde? Can you see his IP?
The Belgium location was revealed accidentally by someone else. And the vitriol comes because there is a legitimate debate on MENA politics that has been crapped on by Debbie’s trolling.
And anyone who sides with the Islamist insurgents deserves to be treated with as much vitriol as I can muster. I loathe this war and our involvement in it, but our troops deserve respect for doing a difficult job under impossible circumstances. Not to mention that several posters here are active-duty military or have friends and family serving.
I wondered that too, but rejected it because I don’t think december could have ever given up his politness schtick to the extent he’d have to in order create Aldebaran.
gobear? Knock off the “Debbie” thing already. He’s gone. We slapped down Collounsbury for calling milroyj “Milly”. There’s plenty of precedent. Nothing’s changed just because Aldebaran can no longer respond here.
You–and others–don’t have to like one thing about Aldebaran or anybody else. Lowering oneself to cheap shots to express depths of outrage reflects more on you than the target. Tit-for-tat fault comparisons are futile. Bad behavior doesn’t exonerate more bad behavior in return. This is badly done. Don’t.
A moderator did rule on changing his user name - but perhaps you feel free to ignore this ruling now that he’s been banned.
He didn’t advocate shooting US soldiers - he said that
I doubt if you would have objected to this line of reasoning if the USA had been invaded and a USA member had written such a sentence. In everyday conversation, how often do you hear people say “I could’ve killed … for doing/saying …” It’s just a figure of speech - and generally accepted as such. It was often pointed out by many people in that thread that he didn’t make a threat - he was talking about how he felt. Everyone has felt, and voiced, anger at some point in their lives - without any intention of acting upon it.
Another poster said that he wanted to nuke the ME and turn it into glass - and that was accepted as an OK post. Regardless of what Veb said - there does seem to be a definite double standard here which has really been spotlighted in this thread.
Regardless of this, Aldebaran got a warning in the very next post after his quote above. I have read numerous hate filled posts directed at Muslims and people from the ME which were not followed at all by a warning of any sort.
And this was his biggest mistake. If he had been a bit more selective in his battles, he would have easily avoided this fate. As it was, he seemed to feel the need to respond to every thread that caught his attention. Once he had been lured, he could be counted on to be found wielding his rhetorical scimitar with great exuberance at the utter turds that were being thrown at him. And in doing so, he was slowly building a mountain of shit around himself . The “mudslide” was inevitable.
Aldebaran: I don’t know if you are still reading this thread or if you are even able to. But if you are, I would like to offer some unsolicited advice to you. Please remember that how you say something is just as important as what you say. For you to be able to effectively communicate your point, no matter how hard it may be, you must remember your target audience and tailor your message accordingly. To do otherwise does more harm to your cause than good. Aleikom Salaam.
gobear:
You remind me of Andrew Sullivan. It’s unfortunate, perhaps, that both of you have the same effect on me as the unnecessary ingestion of a harsh laxative.
Uh, Zoe…why do you ask me to explain some comment I’ve made or point of view I’ve expressed, only to comment no further once I’ve answered? This has happened at least half a dozen times. Is it my deoderant? My mouthwash, maybe?
I do try so hard to express myself completely and well, given that you’re a former teacher and all.
TVeblen,
i’m sorry I annoyed you. I let my anger at the incessant fawning on Aldeberan get the better of me.
ZombiesAteMyBrain, you say that Aldeberan didn’t advocate shooting US soldiers, but when he wrote that he felt like going to Iraq and start shooting there at the “criminals who invaded and keep it under occupation,” who on Earth do you think he was referring to?
Pardon my interruption, but I don’t think that was his/her point. The point was the hypocrisy displayed when Aldebaran expressed views that were similar to those expressed by others who don’t get warned. Yes, he meant U.S. service people. And when others here, even in this very thread, suggest hunting down and killing those who express such views, they are, by the same definition, attacking Aldebaran. Yet, they go unpunished. That is what’s Zombie’s point was.
If this board claims to be international, it needs to recognize that some views expressed will not sit well with some members. To warn folks on one side and not the other is hypocrisy.
No? Just going to rely on that charm and good looks? Sure that’ll be enough?
