Hastur, the problem is not that you are responding slowly but that you are responding selectivly. You are picking the easy targets, and ignoring the thoughtful ones. This is irritating because the people that thought for all of 3.7 seconds before posting get imediate feedback, where as those of us that fine polished our posts for half an hour (or longer) get ignored.
Okay, my ten cents.
First, I think that it is a well-established “fact” – insofar as such things get established around these parts – that Hastur is quick-tempered, and easily takes negative comments as regards homosexuality in general as personal affronts, or if not that, something quite similar.
Occasionally, this results in him being offended by something a person with no homophobic motive comments – { I can think of my wife, who is working with me on a campaign for heightened awareness, questioning the need for official “coming out” – not because she was offended by it, but because she didn’t see the point to making a big production out of “Hi, I’m Mumbling Duckwit, and I’m gay!” We’ve discussed this at some length.} Anyway, that someone, out of ignorance or simply a different point of view, could make a negative statement about some gay people offends him.
But there’s an interesting motive at work here. It’s easy for me to form an opinion about what underprivileged black people living in poverty in slums ought to do about it – but I haven’t been there, I have never felt what an unceasing cycle of this grind does to your spirit, I have only a vague idea how hard it is to get out of that situation with inadequate resources and only a few people if any caring whether you do or don’t make it.
In case most of you nimblewits who take his temper to task had not noticed what he’s posted several times, Hastur ended up on the street, homeless, in his early teens – I think fourteen – because he admitted to his family that he was gay.
Can any of you conceivably grasp what that situation, and struggling your way out of it, might mean to one’s outlook on life, and in particular somebody who sits down in front of his computer and reels off his unthought-through prejudices or top-of-the-head opinions about “what gay people ought to do” – but oh, no, I’m not prejudiced – I’m just concerned for the public welfare! Where in Hell were you when his welfare was at risk?
As far as I’m concerned, if I ever say something that offends him in the course of expressing my views, he is more than welcome to flame me and he will receive my apologies and, if appropriate, an explanation of what I really meant by the poorly phrased statement that offended him – or how my views have changed by being confronted with what he says in retort to them.
And, of course, it’s obvious to everyone here that nobody in the world might have a physical disability that they were embarrassed to speak of, and that his bringing up the problem with his right hand and arm was simply a red herring. :rolleyes:
I’d suggest you all wear Hastur’s moccasins for a bit, and then think about what you’re posting.
Oh, and Diane?
You may be a wonderful person, supportive of your friends, taking in stray dogs and nursing them back to health. I wouldn’t know.
What I do know is that the handful of times I’ve read threads you’ve participated in, you’ve been apparently petty and vengeful to people, incapable of letting go of an issue and attempting to arrive at a consensus, compromise, or modus vivendi.
Since you took the time to list off threads in which “Hastur was an asshole,” may I respectfully ask you to identify threads in which your contribution was positive, non-hostile, aimed at resolution of an issue rather than exacerbation of it? I’d like to see evidence that I’m wrong in my character assessment in the previous paragraph.
In the absence of that, one question for Manhattan: If she’s the cure, what in Hell was the disease? 
I don’t know, Polycarp. I have a lot of sympathy for what Hastur has gone through (and this is the first time I’ve heard it - yikes. Man, that is heartbreaking.)
But - (and there’s always a “but”) a person can’t expect their tragic past history to be obvious to everyone. They can’t behave in a way that would be considered over-the-top if someone else did it, and expect to be exempt from being called on it. Bottom line, Hastur doesn’t get a “pass” on some of his behavior, even though he’s had a shitty childhood and traumatic past. He certainly should get compassion, but not a “pass”, or the kid-glove treatment, when he goes over-the-top. (And I think the case is being made by many reasonable people here, that he has kinda gone “over-the-top”.)
I’m not sure if a “pass” is what you’re suggesting (perhaps not) but I just wanted to say that.
Nice point, 'Babe, and I’m glad you made it.
I’m not calling for a “pass” per se – just for an awareness on the part of the regulars of what might be causing him to get the idea that “somebody’s pissing in my canteen” on the “IMHO, gays should…” comments. What I’d say is, if he seems to have gone “over the top” on some particular issue, call him on it – but with an awareness that while december or Joe Cool or whoever may not be making an asshole of himself in that particular thread and point made, people espousing quite similar viewpoints have shit all over his world in the past, and he’s not inclined to give them a pass to do it again. Why do you think he’s such an activist on the issue at hand anyway?
To take the classic parallel, suppose you’re Coretta Scott King or Mrs. Evers, along about 1972, and somebody comments to you, “you know, that George Wallace/Lester Maddox isn’t really such a bad guy, once you get to know him.” Wouldn’t your first reaction be, “Yeah, right, asshole! :rolleyes: That ain’t gonna bring my husband back!” (The fact that Mrs. King is continuing to fight for equal rights for all Americans with no grudges held and no malice towards those who opposed her in the past is simply clear evidence of the Holy Spirit at work in her, IMHO.) I think there’s a quite simple distinction of proportion between serious life-trashing and matters of etiquette, no matter how important the latter may be to the smooth flowing of the board.
I don’t expect everybody to automatically know what happened to Hastur, or to have my good memory for things read that reminded me of why he’s sometimes a jerk towards parlor pundits pontificating on “what gays ought to think, feel, and do.” But it justifies his attitude to me – and if you choose not to remember when another member here reveals life-changing events in his or her life, don’t be surprised if they get insulted at your later failure to remember their telling you what matters most to them.
Polycarp, my point the whole time has not been about Hastur’s actions per se, but of the way labels such as “homophobe” derail any atttempt at reasonable debate. You have to give people the benefit of the doubt if a conversation is going to get anywhere, and I assume that we are all here (or at least we are all in GD, if not here in the Pit) to have conversations get someplace, to come to a greater understanding both of the world as it is and the world as it is percieved to be by people from a variety of backgrounds.
The ultimate result of this attitude is the idea that one can’t comment on an experience if one hasn’t been there, because one can’t know what it’s like to be gay (or a woman or black or left-handed or whatever). You have to prove you are not a homophobe or a sexist or a racist, and the only way to do that is to have been there, to be a memeber of that particular group at the right time, otherwise, since you can’t know, your commentary is moot and suspect. I find this idea incrediably depressing: of course no one can fully understand what it is to be another person, but I refuse to believe that empathy is totally impossible, and that we can not come to a better understanding of each other over time, that we can’t compare our own experiences to the verbal descriptions of others and imagene being in the other’s place. If we can’t, not only can we never debate anything, but all of our relationships, our marriges, our connections to the world are just shams.
It is not a matter of choosing to remember: assuming that someone forgot what a poster said in another thread seems to place the burden of reading every single thread on people and I don’t think anyone does that.
IMHO…
One of the great things about the SD is leaving the Real World[sub]TM[/sub] behind.
Unless it is a rant or MPSIMS thread, I kind of think the RW stuff is irrelevant. It is impossible to know what is real and what is made up out of convience.
You learn the most when you get treated just like everybody else. If you are acting inappropriately, then you get called on it. No excuses count.
As a poster here, you don’t have to worry about walking on glass, you don’t have to worry about seeing them at work on Monday, you just have to call it as you see it.
Hastur may have had the worst life imaginable. He could be a parapalegic typing with a pencil in his mouth. I just don’t care. When you post here, the only thing you get judged by are your words.
Anything less is just a cop out.
bows before the Almighty Polycarp
WOW. THAT was good. DAMN GOOD.
Also, kudos to Sua, Yosemitebabe and Manda JO.
Seriously, Hastur-you’re a cool guy-a fellow MiSTie and the fact that you recognize the serious babage factors in Michael J. Nelson definitely speak in your favor.
HOWEVER…sometimes, you just have to let it go. Pick and choose your battles, and remain calm. Yes, some things may bite you, but you can’t just go flying out at people. You need to take a deep breath, remain calm-and especially not post in anger.
Seriously. Calm. A Jedi always acts when calm. Never in anger. The Dark side it is.
[quote[Since you took the time to list off threads in which “Hastur was an asshole,” may I respectfully ask you to identify threads in which your contribution was positive, non-hostile, aimed at resolution of an issue rather than exacerbation of it? I’d like to see evidence that I’m wrong in my character assessment in the previous paragraph.{/quote]
That’s a pretty big claim you made there. I ask you to provide the proof or retract your statement.
I only did the research for Hastur because (A) his track record shows that he can not or will not provide proof to back up his claims, (B) I was feeling a bit “searchy” and had the time and urge to do it, and © I wanted to see for myself if maybe there was a thread or two that I might have forgotten.
I challenge you to make a search of all my posts from now until December 5, 2000, the same period of time I searched for Hastur’s threads. Hell, if it makes you feel better, go back further. Show the number of times I attacked someone from left field. The number of times I have offered helpful suggestions or answers, encouragement, a pat on the back, a shoulder, asked for advice, sought out answers, or just took the opportunity to jump on a setup for a joke or smartassed comment. You seem to think there is a countable amount of hostile posts from me, I want to see them. How many of my 2781 posts have been as you describe?
I am not the huggie, let’s all hold hands and sing 'round the campfire sort of person, but the times I am, I have been completely sincere (on the board, in e-mail, and IRL). For those who have received the kind word or encouragement, can take it to the bank that I mean what I say 110%. There is never any doubt.
I am a very honest and open person, to a fault at times. I am not afraid to say how I feel here or IRL. If I think someone is acting like an asshole, I’ll tell them they are acting like an asshole. There are some (in particularly men) who find this threatening for some God-only-knows reason. Your search of my threads, if you indeed put forth the effort to check the validity of your comments, will show that very seldom have I voiced my “I think you are an asshole” opinion unless things have gone to the extreme.
I’ll give you a head start on your search. Here you will find me at my worst and I admit it. I never said I was an angel ALL the time, but I have never just thrown out a flame just for the sake of it.
- Soon after the new board opened (over two years ago), I thought a certain poster was treating a lot of posters like shit. For no reason he was attacking people that I care about and it pissed me off. He started his crap with me and I fired back. He was being a jerk and eventually got banned for it. I didn’t say anything I didn’t mean and don’t regret any of it. He was making the board miserable for the rest of us.
- Again, soon after the new board opened, a newbie showed up and started bitching right and left about how unfair the administrators and moderators are. How they picked on her and a few other problem children (including the person mentioned above). I hate martyr acts and whiners and I took an instant disliking to this person. However, over time the pettiness of both our actions got to be ridiculous and we became friends over a year ago. I do like her now, a lot.
- Another person who had actually been a friend at one time but then turned on others for no apparent reason other than to take out his personal frustrations and hate. I gave him the benefit of understanding that he may be going through a rough period in his life but when he viciously attacked yet another poster with such hatefulness that I finally (again, along with others) let him know where the bear shits in the Diane Forest. He too got banned for his actions, so I was not the only one to see his assholishness.
- Lastly, the B.S. that is happening right now with Hastur. You can see by the other comments in this thread that I am not the only one who is getting disgusted with his hatefilled and vile comments. His hypocrisy. His attempts at martyrdom. It is getting very old and tiresome and as a member of this board, I have every right to voice my opinion that his “act” affects the board.
If there are any others (besides the trolls – i.e. Rosiewolf, Serlin, Phaed-something-or-other, which are open season), I have forgotten them and wouldn’t mind if you brought them to my attention in your search. Honestly, I don’t think there are others.
I also challenge you to look at the above examples (if you want the actual names of the posters involved, I will e-mail them to you) and tell me the level at which the flames sank. I can assure you that three of the four shown above tossed around hateful comments such as “Fuck you with a rusty chainsaw” like a jugglers balls. Unless I am forgetting a comment I wrote, I have never felt the need to resort to such disgusting, hateful comments. Just look at this very thread and tell me who is being hostile.
So you go ahead and look through all my posts and come back to report the high percentage of this so-called hostility and hate in comparison to the positive things I have offered. I’ll be here waiting if for not an apology, an admittance of being mistaken.
Also, if what Hastur claims is true in regards to his parents, I have great sympathy for him and can understand his over-reaction to certain things, HOWEVER, that is NOT an excuse to treat others with such contemptible hate and it does NOT justify his inability to back up claims that he has made on the board (and no, I am not just referring to the magic claim) and it does NOT excuse him for nailing himself to the cross. The actions of HIS parents does NOT mean the entire board must suffer. It is not only insulting to us but him as well, to expect us to treat him with kid gloves, especially with the hateful shit he slings around so freely. No one just “calls him on it” without him firing back with both barrels and unreasonable overreaction.
Also, it is very unreasonable to expect that we should all follow the lives of every poster here, and if Hastur has such a problem with those he perceives as being homophobic then maybe he needs to explain the reasons why in his replies instead of personal attacks.
As Freedom said, we are judged by what we write and unless someone is holding Hastur’s hand and forcing him to write the things that he writes, he is going to be judged by his words. If he is unable to handle the responses he receives then maybe he needs to think before he hits the reply button or seriously consider whether or not he should participate in a message board.
And about my sig. If you are so familiar with my posts, you should already know what it means.
You know Freedom, theres a problem with that. The real world exists and the internet is simply a part of it. Simply judging people on their words ignores the reality of the situation. Likewise the idea of someone getting a pass for real world stuff one might not know about ignores the reality of the situation.
You should not ignore anything, because it is there. You should just give it as much value as it deserves. Which for people who can’t type as well is quite real. The internet is not about ignoring reality.
Manda Jo, I think that your simply arguing against nothing. Your arguement consists of the idea that the idea of not being able to comment on something is the end result of this and if you look at this thread people agree with you and said Hastur was quick to insult. Your arguement is based on the idea that most posters agree with Hastur insulting december, and they don’t.
Diane are you trying to make yourself look like Hastur? He posts mostly good things, except on certain issues. You say you post mostly good things, except when it comes to certain things. If I judged you and Hastur by only this thread I would consider you both assholes. Your good posts do not stop people from calling you on your bad ones, and neither do they **Hastur[/].
Well, Hastur, for one, dosen’t agree with me, and he is the person I am argueing with. I haven’t been addressing his exact situation directly because I do think that there is a larger issue here that is needs attention, and I would like to broaden the issue into something more signifigant than “Haster is a meanie!” My point is not to argue but to to draw attention to the ultimite consequenses of having charges of homophobia, sexism, racism, etc. used as answers to arguements regardless of whether or not the person in question really is a [blank].
Sterra -
True, the internet is part of the real world, but just like the real world, we are judged by the things we say, whether the words come from our mouths or across a computer screen.
To your second post:
Wouldn’t life really suck if we were always positive or always funny or always bitchy?
You may like the things I have said or written in another thread and hate what I say in another, the fact is that I am not a shallow, two dimensional person. I have many different opinions on many different subjects, some good, some bad. Some may be distasteful to you. You may like who I am at times while thinking I am an asshole other times, but that’s just the way life is and thank God for that.
I’m sure Diane can take care of herself but I have absolutely nothing better to do than search all 2000+ posts of her to look for examples where she acted in the manner described. (The three threads re:Hastur that she already linked to are not counted in my assessment)
While I was looking for example of when she was “petty and vengeful” I ran across this thread:
Do Your Fucking Job, Bitch!. Look for her post almost at the bottom of the first page. Certainly not petty or vengeful.
In I’ve Never Hated Anyone…until now Diane offers sincere advice to The Mighty Tiki God
Ok, I checked every single one of her Pit posts from today until 1/29/01. I did not run across a single thread where she acted in anyway petty, vindictive, or inappropriate.
So, I will moving onto Great Debates to see if she has a problem with civility.
When I opened Ask The Neo-Pagan Guy! I confess that I was a little bit nervous about what I’d find. It turns out I had no need to be. She inquired about certain aspects of magic(k) in a respectful tone, and she didn’t make any attacks against people who claimed to be Pagan or Wiccan.
In The Last Remaining Acceptable Stereotype… she gives discusses a very sensitive subject in a polite, but firm way. Her point is very clear, and she doesn’t not attack anybody personally, whether implicitly or explicitly.
As a matter of fact, in Great Debates she always adds something to the conversation with a well thought out, on-point post. I’ve never seen her act vindictive in that forum. I wish she would post their more.
Ok, so I’ll check MPSIMS.
Eh, didn’t find anything there either.
So, what we have here Polycarp is a funny, thoughtful woman and “to the point” poster. I searched posts from the past 6 months and have found none like the type you described. In other words, you owe Diane an apology.
[sub]I keep getting “Connection Timed Out”, so I’m going to post this w/o preview. If the codes are messed up, be kind.[/sub]
Pepper, as I have said before, you are a sweetheart.
Just as my proof to Hastur, your efforts may be in vain. Once a person has formed an opinion, whether founded or not, it is almost impossible to change their feelings. It’s just human nature.
In spite of the proof, er shall I say lack of proof, Hastur will continue claiming that I am following him around the board attacking him, when in fact I have not and don’t plan on doing so.
I have the feeling that regardless of what you show him, Polycarp will continue to see me in the light he has created for me. It’s really too bad, because I would rather be judged by what I say and do (good and bad) and not in the way someone recreates me.
While Diane has always struck me as being over all a good person, there is something about her style when someone gets on her “asshole” list that almost forces the situation to escalate. I can’t put my finger on exactly what it is that does this, but the overall impression of her posts in that the person being flamed has two choices: either to admit
they they are the verriest scum of the earth or to get hostile. Diane, and I mean this as honest advice, if you want your critism to change anything you have to couch it in such a way that the person flamed can agree with you and maintain their dignity at the same time.
In a way, you remind me a bit of Hastur: you go for the throat and hold on, and the result is that the person attacked feels like they are doomed anyway so they might as well go down fighting.
Diane isn’t afraid of speaking her mind. To some people that can be annoying, tactless and unnecessary.
To others it is interesting, witty and honest.
From what I know of her, I doubt if she gives a shit what camp you fall into.
Hastur, I don’t think that we’ve ever been on opposite ends. I’ve read your posts on many subjects, and found you to be a good poster with positive things to add.
Now, please do not take this the wrong way. When the subject turns to homosexuality, you jump on and maul the first person to post something that you percieve negatively. I don’t know your history, so I am not going to comment on your opinions, but it would help things greatly if you picked your battles. Your judgement seems to cloud on this topic.
Hastur, I think you’re pretty cool, but I’m sorry, I just cant participate with you on the subject of sexuality.
Now, can we all just get along? Or will I be forced to slap you all across the ass with my cyber-member?
Just wanna point out one thing: bigotry cuts both ways. It’s possible to be bigotted against those perceived as homosexuals, and it’s possible to be bigotted against those perceived as homophobes. Neither aspect of bigotry is justified.
Ending the Diane hijack I perpetrated here:
Thank you for a quite civil answer to what could easily have been seen as a blatant attack.
The answer, as you observed, is that I have noted your comments largely in two of the four cases you identified as “times when you needed to call an asshole an asshole.” Since one of these was a personal friend with a tendency to get hot on what he perceived as injustice, I confess that I had formed a very negative opinion of you from them. I tried in my challenge to give you the benefit of the doubt – prove to me you’re not as I have perceived you to be.
You did that.
You’ve spelled out your posting philosophy, and I see where I have noted only the occasions when you rose to the issue and “let the chips fall where Jesus flang them.” I don’t need to do that search – I accept your personal self-assessment. I will offer the suggestion, in what I hope you’ll take as friendship, based on the ATMB thread after Brian’s banning, that you may need to work on letting go of an anti-N.N. situation after you’ve made your point. (I’m bad at this myself, bulldogging already dead horses when I get my dander up, so I’m not calling you anything I wouldn’t accept back in saying that.) But from the sounds, you are an upfront poster, unafraid to express your opinion, and I happen to have seen largely the negative side of that. You’re clearly more than that – the mere fact you answered temperately and making your point by example proves that. And I’m not the sort of idiot who lets first perceptions color all future dealings with someone. I’d formed a wrong opinion of you from those limited cases where I’d noted “call out an asshole” posts by you, and they’re obviously not the whole story. Let there be peace between us.
As for the Hastur issue, my point is on thin ice, but let me rephrase it slightly. Half the board knows that handy is deaf. If a newbie came across with some supercilious unsolicited opinion on what “deaf people ought to do” that did not fit with the reality handy lives with day in and day out, and in consequence handy slammed him, how many of us would think that the newbie was justified?
I’m not suggesting that Hastur deserves “a free pass to be an asshole” – but I am suggesting that those who know what helped make him the way he is owe him the charity, since we don’t have any means of repairing the past that made him who he is, of interceding to ameliorate situations when somebody with no stake in the issue suggests something that he perceives as a putdown of him and other gay people. There are other ways of dealing with anger in another than getting angry yourself – case in point, that Diane and I have (I hope) resolved a potential clash civilly.
I think Hastur is justified in feeling anger towards someone for whom the question is academic and who pontificates on matters that have shaped his life as much as they have. I don’t feel he’s always taken the right path in his “righteous wrath” at perceived homophobes – december in the case at hand may not have earned his ire; that’s for them to work out, with others who have participated in the thread and know what’s going on. In december’s shoes, I’d try to avoid getting defensive and lashing back at Hastur and try to resolve the question that instigated the entire blow-up.
That is a challenge to all of you who are not homophobic, who have no issues to get upset about, when such cases occur. It’s to none of our benefits to allow anger to cloud the truth. We’re supposed to be fighting ignorance, not each other.
The term “homophobic” is too easily thrown at people who express sentiments of anything less than total acceptance of homosexuality. I define homophobes as people who hate and fear homosexuals, people like Fred Phelps. December’s
posts on homosexuality seem to me to reflect more ignorance than hostility. I really think that, in his case, tolerant instruction would do more good than intemperate invective. I
try to live by what Gandhi said, “The best way to destroy an enemy is to make him your friend.”
It’s OK for straight folks to not feel entirely comfortable with homosexuality;, heck, the idea of heteros going at it meakes me feel kinda queasy. It’s possible to be uncomfortable with a subsection of the populace and still be able to support their rights as citizens.
You say things like that and expect us to behave? Pshaaaaaaaw! Sounds more like an incentive to be bad! 
Manda JO - If I’m being an unreasonable bitch, call me on it, I’m a big girl and I can take it. Really. Sometimes I do need to be slapped around a little bit (hear that Twisty? ;)). But if anyone starts reinventing who I am with untrue bullshit that they create, they can be assured that I expect them to back up their words. Hastur and Polycarp both made specific claims about things I have written on this board. They are wrong. Period. I haven’t lost any sleep over it.
You however, are right, I can be a stubborn, opinionated person who has a hard time backing down, especially when I have feelings on a subject. For the most part, it is a trait that has made me excel in life as a strong and successful person. I will fight tooth and nail for you or anyone else I feel is being wronged. As you noticed sometimes I play a little too rough and forget that although I am having great time getting into the spirit of a good flame the other person may be taking things a lot more serious that I am. For this I apologize. I will take your advice and consider letting up on the throat when their face starts to turn blue.
Will I change? Honestly? Probably not. This is who I am and who I will always be, although those who know me will argue that I am a very kind person who cares for people deeply and would never intentionally hurt someone.
This horse is now starting to rot so I think I am going to go see what I can do now to get Twisty to whip out his cyber-weiner.