Polycarp - My hand is extended to you and there are absolutely no hard feelings on my end. You have earned a lot of respect from me. Thanks.
Poly, as always, thanks. I think you are right - that Hastur is justified in feeling anger towards those who pontificate on his reality. And, if that is what happened here, I wouldn’t have started this thread.
But the problem here was caused by disputed facts, not opinions. To my reading of the threads in question (and, knowing what I was getting into, trust me I read them carefully), the dispute, and the accusations of homophobia, came out of two factual issues:
- The assertion that students were allowed to wear “Gay Pride” t-shirts while the punk with the “Straight Pride” t-shirt was suspended;
- Whether the Human Rights Campaign’s figure of 2 million gay teenagers at risk for gay-bashing was accurate (with the subsidiary issue of whether statistics from advocacy groups should be trusted).
Both facts are legitimately in dispute. The linked article in the threads did not mention “Gay Pride” t-shirts, but a poster reported seeing them on television reports (BTW, I never saw the issue here. IMO, “Gay Pride” t-shirts should be allowed, but “Straight Pride” t-shirts should be banned). And the 2 million figure is obviously guesswork - no one knows 1) what percentage of the population is gay; 2) of the gay teenage population, what percentage is closeted; and 3) at what average age people self-recognize their sexual identity.
If someone presents an offensive opinion, have at it. If someone treats your life and your reality as an abstraction, tear them a new one. But if someone challenges your facts, or makes factual assertions you think are incorrect, well hell, that’s the point of these boards - to teach each other.
Hell, on both Thursday and Friday I had to withdraw points I made in GD because my facts were wrong. I don’t want to become leery of posting for fear of being given a horrific label when I’m simply being stupid.
Sua
I’m gonna have to weigh in with mild disagreement to Polycarp.
While it is right and proper to feel empathy and sympathy for people in difficult circumstances, those circumstances don’t convey any special privileges or add any weight to what one says.
Especially in a Message board environment, one’s words must stand on their own. When they don’t that person’s argument is fair game.
Now I’m not calling Hastur a liar, but for all we know he may not be what he says he is. He could be a monkey in a cage in a research lab that just stole a lap top and is pretending to be a man.
For all we know Polycarp might actually be a Grand Wizard of the KKK.
I could be a space alien.
As could any of us.
Supposing he is? That shouldn’t effect the strength of his arguments one way or the other.
On the other hand, I realize that people often bear scars from their collisions with reality, and it’s usually not nice to provoke people on known hot spots.
But, that is something quite different thang giving somebody a free pass based on their stated circumstances regardless of their veracity.
.
Whaddaya mean, “could”!? :eek:
I don’t think you are being an unreasonable bitch: my complaint was not at all about being nice, or about considering other people’s feeling, or about whether your cause was just. It was about being effective, about writting a flame that causes people to sit back and think and then come back and apologize, not a flame that excites the lurker so much they feel like chimeing in and laying on more shit. If what you want in an arguement is too win, not just to get out your ire, you have to (quite deliberatly) throw the other party a life line concealed in your complaint, a way for them to acknowledge that you were right, but that overall they are still a decent person who ought to be allowed to live amongst us humans. The way you go for the throat demands that people fight you because to agree with you amounts to agreeing to thier own public emasculation.
GOBOY –
WHAT??? Whatever gave you that idea? Don’t make me come over there. You’ve never given me any reason to dislike, much less despise, you, at least that I can recall.
MATT –
Clearly not; it means that I’m not defending him, and that’s all it means.
POLYCARP –
That’s truly awful and he has my sympathies for dealing with something so horrific. This does not IMO excuse either his paranoia that everyone discussing homosexuality and disagreeing with him is a homophobe (as opposed to ignorant, or legitimately holding a contrary opinion) or his willingness to grievously insult people at the drop of a hat. Maybe other people have had even worse life experiences that we are not aware of, but we may reasonably expect some minimum standard of both rationality and civility from everyone.
What about when you legitimately disagree with him and intend no insult but he’s insulted anyway, and suddenly and unequivocally insults you? What’s your recourse there? To admit that he’s correct because of his “life experiences” even though you truly don’t believe he is? To sit back and take the insults just because he’s had a tough life?
First, I have done so to the best of my ability and may in good conscience repeat: I think he’s too quick to label people as homophobes, and too quick to insult in general. Second, I have seen little evidence that HASTUR does this – attempts to put himself in the shoes of other posters – if he did so maybe he would realize that not every stupid/ignorant/disagreeable thing that’s posted is the result of homophobia or the Great Straight Conspiracy.
That is precisely what SUA has attempted to do with this very thread, or did you miss that?
Not every person reads every thread on this Board. I don’t believe I had ever heard anything about HASTUR’s history, so it would be really out of line for him to be insulted that I didn’t know about it – as you (wrongly) suggest he legitimately could. Please do not encourage him to add to his inclination to be insulted by any opinion that does not accord with his own regarding his sexuality by suggesting that he might also be insulted by people failing to take notes on his past. He’s far too quick to take insult as it is.
The question is not whether the newbie was justified but whether HANDY would be justified in slamming him when the newbie didn’t know HANDY was deaf. If the “slam” constitutes a total overreaction and an instantaneous accusation that the newbie was a “hearing-impaired-ophobe” then I would view HANDY’s actions with the same degree of disfavor, and for the same reasons, that I view HASTUR’s. I would also add that I don’t necessarily disagree with HASTUR in his views; I just think it’s very dangerous to call people “homophobe” at the drop of a hat: as MANDA JO points out, it generally puts an end to constructive discourse. It also devalues to word: What term would HASTUR use on a real homophobe to indicate actual maliciousness, as opposed to mere ignorance?
I absolutely, 100% disagree with this, and furthermore suggest that it is exactly what you claim it is not – an argument for “giving him a pass” and excusing his conduct and overreactions based on his history. He is an adult and should be able to act like one, which includes not overreacting to the point of apparent paranoia on the issue of sexuality. I realize that some people are over-sensitive or certain issues; that HASTUR is one of them on this one; and that legitimate reasons exist for him to be that way. I disagree, however, on believing that should repeatedly excuse his behavior. If we must recognize this oversensitivity, then so should he. If we can see that he may act a certain way due to his history and upbringing, then he should be able to see the same where other posters are concerned – including that they may post out of ignorance or hold beliefs that do not accord with his own. If we have an obligation to be tolerant of him, then he has an obligation to be tolerant of others. Unfortunately, if the “others” are people he disagrees with, then he is singularly bad at tolerating them.
It’s not as if the same points he makes cannot be made without insult and invective. MATT does so. So do FREYR and GOBOY and ESPRIX. None of them expect to be allowed to be insulting and overreacting because they have experienced some tough patches because of their sexuality. And since “fighting ignorance” is what this Board is all about, ask yourself who does it better in this area – HASTUR or just about any other openly gay poster you could name?
Again, I’m not trying to attack him; I’m just agreeing that ample reason exists for suggesting he dial it down a few notches.
Had to throw in a few points, didn’t want to, but had to.
Hastur seemed to me to be someone who throws out insults without hesitation, or disrcimination (or much of a reason, sometimes). But so do many posters.
I have only run into him a few times, and got my share of insults from him.
I have no intention of interacting with Hastur, unless something incredible appears in his posts.
But I think he’s had enough tossed at him here, and given what he has described, give him a chance to amswer it before you toss more - ie, plenty of points are unanswered, he has said why, now why not let him reply before adding to the pile?
Polycarp, I’m not sure it was wise to discuss such aspects of a person’s life (unless he has said he does not mind having these things widely known). I’m not sure your point about his past should weigh in on present duscussions - it means that any of us can pull out something at any point in a debate, and use it as a way to gain sympathy, and avoid the point. “Well, I was once hit by a bicycle, so all bicyclists are threatning to me, so don’t talk to me about…” Maybe a bad example, but I hope you see what I mean.
I can’t speak for Poly, and I’m not sure it’s exactly what he meant. However, you do bring up an excellent point. I’ve seen this tactic used before. On a different message board a while ago, a web author asked for a “site check” on her new web site. This one girl trashed it terribly. Her reason - the web page stated “Dogs can do no wrong” (a dog lover wrote the page!) Well, the critic went on about how she was horribly mauled by a dog, still had the scars from the many stiches, etc., and she was terribly offended by web author’s glowing statement about dogs. Certainly we all could have sympathy for her traumatic experience with dogs, but man! What a completely inapporpriate reason to even bring it up!
I don’t know if it completely parallels to the issue at hand, but I don’t want us going down a simular path as the one I described above. It screeches all intelligent discussion to a halt.
So much to respond to…
p1 - water2j:
06-02-2001 08:55 PM
Perspective is everything. To me, his cites and remarks came off as being mildly homophobic. I felt that required comment. I was bothered, and still am, by his lack of retraction on the statement that gay kids were favored and that Gay Pride shirts were encouraged. He admitted, if you read the thread, that he had been baiting me. While that does not have him saying it was related to the remarks I found offensive, it does show that he knew he was pissing me off, and had been concious in the process of doing it.
p1 - Mercutio:
06-02-2001 11:57 PM
You are the weakest link.
Goodbye.
p2 Anthracite:
06-03-2001 07:35 AM
A little of column a and a little of column b. I was shocked and hurt by your remark. I now wish I had not lumped you in with the Queen of Feculence. Her post was like a cudgel, and I let my fury bleed on to you. While I found your words hurtful, I do now realize in retrospect that you were not trying to be mean. I apologize for the remarks I made as they applied to you. Mea culpa.
p2 Diane:
06-03-2001 08:16 AM
My remarks about you stand. While you have admitted flaw in yourself, I am tired of being the focus. If you need to vent this sadistic urge further, might I suggest you either become a prison matron or Anne Robinson’s sex toy? You added nothing to the debate other than hostility and attempts to gain amusement and favor at my expense. Your act of me being the bad guy doesn’t wash.
You came into a thread about bullying and began attacking me. Then when I attempted to talk to you via e-mail, you were vicious, snide, accused me of whining, and then threatened to take action against me if I mailed you further. Be an adult, Diane.
p2 SueDuhnym:
06-03-2001 08:20 AM
Oh mighty pimp goddess, I thank thee for thy kind words.
May they crack rocks be plentiful and may thy hoes work it like a Waring blender.
p2 Flymaster:
06-03-2001 08:39 AM
WHATEVER.
To take one statement and to try and transform it into a belief of rampant misogyny is a leap that would go beyond the Grand Canyon. A single slur does not a misogynist make.
I have protected women so they could get into abortion clinics. I have been a volunteer on two campuses to walk women home at night so they could feel safe. I have signed petitions about female circumcision.
I love women. I’m a misandrist. (;
p2 MandaJo:
06-03-2001 10:49 AM
I caught sight of a few, was pissed off, and as I have to backspace and fix my typing when I am having the hand problem, I get more cranky about having to fix my words again. So, I did respond to a few… the ones that pissed me off. When a calmer head prevailed, I couldn’t move the fingers of my right hand and had to stop. Which is why I’m trying to do it now.
p2 Polycarp:
06-03-2001 11:26 AM
I was seventeen when they threw me out. Of my grandmother’s house, no less. I don’t mind you mentioning it, as it is open record since I posted it on here.
While it did affect me, as do many things from my unique past, it isn’t the reason for my reaction to december and other people I have percieved to be homophobic.
For the past three weeks, for a speech class I am taking, I have been doing speeches about civil unions and homophobia.
The research was hard to take at times, because it made the inequities so glaring. Then having to re-read about the murders of Matthew Shephard, Brandon Teena, and Billy Jack Gaither compounded my sense of frustration and ennui.
Add to this some of the homophobic drivel that has been posted on this board by puddleglum, der kommissar, and others, and I was ready to snap. I still do think his comments were homophobic. I think cites used count in this.
If you use a homophobic cite to prove your point, that comes off to me that the person in question is a homophobe. I was not nasty to him, nor was I insulting as it was the Great Debates. That no one could know the inflection of my words as they sat coldly on the screen, and thus inferred angry insult from it should not be my problem. YMMV.
p2 yosemitebabe:
06-03-2001 12:01 PM
Over the top? In the december debacle? I don’t think so. I think it is a mountain(K2) made out of a molehill. There have been some people on here who are unhappy that I post.
And a select few who are unhappy that I draw breath.
There are people who never seem to see threads where I am nice, compassionate, and being helpful. I am more than my sexuality, more than my gender, and more than my faith.
I can get viciously vitrolic. I save that for the Pit.
Contrary to what some may think, I don’t like to raise the ire of the mods.
Over the top was when I was pissed at Diane and started a thread about her, and similarly when I started a thread about Techchick68.
I don’t think calling someone a homophobe is the same thing.
YMMV.
p2 MandaJo:
06-03-2001 01:12 PM
The word homophobe does not derail debate for me. At that point, I give a chance for someone to prove that they aren’t. In december’s case, I gave my perspective on why I think it was a correct thing to say. He can refute. He could prove me wrong. It has been done, and I do own up to it when I am wrong.
p2 Freedom:
06-03-2001 03:52 PM
{with apologies to Wham!}
I don’t want your Freedom,
I really wouldn’t mind,
if you posted something useful,
and didn’t try to read my mind.
You can take your cop out,
and shove it up your ass.
Doo-doo-doo. Oh, whoa, yeah.*
p2. Guinastasia:
06-03-2001 04:56 PM
Point taken. Thank you. Can the bots and I see Leech Woman again, Pearl?
p2. Diane:
06-03-2001 05:47 PM
Spare me, Diane. You trying to claim injury is like Zsa Zsa Gabor refusing diamonds. It just doesn’t wash.
You thought my insult was too hot? Get out of the Pit. And while you are at it, stop being an antagonistic bitch. When you come and attack me for NO REASON, you get in return, exactly what you put out.
More later… my hand is tired
Ummm, Hastur in your future arguments of how you are treated vs anyone else on this board, please leave my name out of the scenario. I don’t appreciate it one bit. You are taking my past and making it a weak defense that is unfair to me and other board members.
Next time, think before you type…I could use you as an example in many threads that are started in The Pit for various reasons but I refrain.
You don’t like me, we all know that it’s been driven home many times now, now get off the cow and be somewhat civil and don’t use me as some example to bring out your weak argument.
It was a fucking example of the past. Of course, now you are making me think that instead of being over the top, that I was on target.
And I was being civil. You are being your normal oversensitive self and retracting into victim mode.
Fair and unfair are the arguments of a child. There is no such thing as fair. Suck it up, grow up, and move on. Life does not always go one’s way because it isn’t fair. The sooner you understand that, the happier you will be.
Hastur,
I am not here to start a pissing match with you, I am asking you to refrain from using my name as I think it’s rude. That’s it, that’s all I am asking. Not a difficult task.
Actually, as it remained ONLY an assertion, I found that remark that gay students were getting preferential treatment a slur.
I’ve not seen a high school or college that was gay friendly. I just spent a weekend working a seminar where I heard people calling each other homo and faggot as slurs, and what they said when they saw me and my husband was less nice. I’m over my limit of dealing with bigotry. If this makes me a bad person, c’est la vie.
I can be intolerant on wanting tolerance. I’m human. I’m not perfect.
If december had retracted his remarks I would have let it drop. It cropped up again, being said as if it was truth in http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=72477 posted by Mahaloth.
We have less rights than straight people. At times, depending on the state or country we live in, we have to worry about being busted for having private consentual sex in our own homes.
It disgusts me that on a board devoted to disspelling ignorance that ignorance is spread about a section of the population. Were it about black people, asians, or an ethnicity it would be stomped on by many.
This is not to say that points are not refuted, but were similar remarks made about someone of an ethnicity or religion, the poster putting forth the intolerance would be slapped silly.
Instead, I’m being slapped silly for refusing to be a doormat. Or at least that is the way it feels.
Right back 'atcha.
I’m exactly what I say I am.
And just because I don’t often like what you say, does not mean I dislike you.
When it comes to sharing an instance of my past, that you are in it should be inconsequential. Just because I type your name doesn’t require your comment. I was saying in the thread that I might have overreacted.
You overreacted by commenting on it and behaving as if it was a further slight. There are times when life is NOT ABOUT YOU.
No, this thread is not about me nor is life all about me but the moment you mentioned me, it becomes my business, you mentioned me by name. I didn’t overract, I simply reacted and yes, in a civil manner. I don’t enjoy people using my name in this manner, particularly you as you have made it very clear that you dislike me and we all know it, you’ve used that, get over it. I stated my opinion on your comment, you further stated on it and we are at a stalemate as usual.
More, tc68 drama. Pointless to respond to as she can never be wrong or in the wrong.
Here is your crown of thorns, hair shirt, and cross(directly from SPOOFE’s Cross-O-Rama™). You are the victim, it was a mistake for me to even mention your name, and I will forward the damage settlement into your Bahamanian account that you have set up to collect your winnings from all the times you have been unjustly maligned and had your flawless sainthood besmirched.
Everything is about you, and I was blind not to see it.
You’re brilliant…so damned brilliant.
< puking quietly in the corner >
You know, when she’s puking, she can’t talk or type. Where is my Nobel Prize?
Uh, I’m confused. If someone gets the impression (because of some assertion or information they read or got somewhere) that gay students are getting “preferential treatment”, then they are either right, or wrong. They are either reading incorrect information, making incorrect assumptions or conclusions, or they are not. But I don’t know where “slur” comes into it.
As far as “over the top” goes - that is why this whole thread was started. Apparently A LOT of people feel that sometimes you are “over the top”, and they have said so here. You may disagree with them, but it still doesn’t negate the fact that a certain number of people actually do feel that way. And I doubt that your saying “No I’m not!” is going to change their minds so quickly. Buy hey - I could be wrong.