Helping a woman down steps

[JThunder]

@Fuzzy_Dunlop

JThunder follows a rule of “etiquette” that states he should continue to offer his assistance even after it has been politely declined until he is either snapped at or is rebuked often enough for a pattern to develop and it becomes sufficiently clear to him that the woman means what she said the first time.

Once again, you are twisting my words around severely. You obviously consider that to be polite behavior. Most people do not.

I said nothing about pestering a woman until she finally agrees to accept assistance. Quite the contrary; I repeatedly and explicitly said that I think that offering twice (that is, on two separate occasions) is probably sufficient. This is consistent with the recommendations of other women that I have spoken to.

You obviously choose to ignore that. You have already made up your mind that this involves standing there and badgering the woman until she finally agrees to accept OR snaps back with an angry rebuke. Were this the Pit, I would make an angry remark about your reading comprehension skills. Instead, I will simply emphasize that I have pointed this distinction out to you multiple times before.

In the same manner, you had already made up your mind that each situation upon disembarking from the streetcars must necessarily be treated in exactly the same way – that there can be no possible distinction. Did you even bother asking whether there was any difference? No – not until long after you had already made up your mind. When I posed this same question to my co-workers, virtually every one said, “The situation might have changed.” They picked up on that immediately, and they knew better that to insist that the world must somehow comply with their assumptions.

You might want to change that behavior before you deign to lecture other people on matters of politeness.

Weedy is absolutely right. You are obviously insistent that yours is the only reasonable and absolute way, even though others disagree. As another poster early in this thread said, one should not deign to speak on behalf of all women (or for that matter, all men) in this regard.

[JThunder]

@Glory

If anything, that’s exactly why I think that some of you folks are being overly rigid and insistent with your rules. It’s why I think that it’s more important to adopt an attitude of tolerance and understanding rather than saying, “Follow these specific rules, darn it!”

This is why I would have refused politely the first time. I would have been tolerant of your attempt at politeness. I would have been annoyed at the second, I have already nicely declined your assistance - unless something had drastically changed between the first and second occasion and I actually needed help. As a reasonably fit, under 40 person, I assume I could have managed getting off multiple buses. Just like your male friends.

And I think that is a reasonable response on your part. I think it’s worth gauging whether the steps are likely to present a challenge — and to some extent, err on the side of caution without going overboard.

At the same time, I think one should consider that there is a gray area somewhere in between. Remember, it might not be immediately obvious to someone whether you need assistance or not. Heck, it might not even be immediately obvious to the passenger until she (or he) is already about to step off. I would consider that before getting annoyed, and certainly before expressing annoyance.

Like I said, I don’t have a problem with your approach, Glory. Like it or not, a lot of societal niceties involve this dance wherein you balance off the varied and sometimes diametrically opposite expectations and preferences of people. I do have a problem with people saying, “This is the formula that you must follow, and any departure from this is inexcusable!”

[Shot_From_Guns]

@JThunder

In fact, on the second occasion, one of the museum staff members smiled and said, “Hey, that’s my job.”

Possible translation: “I can’t come right out and tell you to stop doing that, but please stop doing that–you’re making some of the other patrons uncomfortable.”

Personally, I appreciate that some people here think it’s a silly gesture. That’s why I solicited your opinions, to see what you think. I also can’t discount the comments I’ve heard from women who said that they appreciate these gestures, especially when the terrain is more difficult to walk on.

You certainly don’t seem to be giving the opinions equal weight. Any person who says “yes, you did the right thing” you are seeing as support and confirmation; anyone who says “no, you were impolite” is simply expressing another opinion, one which has absolutely no bearing on how you will conduct yourself in the future.

At this point, I simply think that some of you need to be more flexible in your thinking. Not every woman holds the same view on this issue, which is why I think it’s foolish to insist on rigid rules such as “Ask once and no more, no matter how much the terrain changes!”

But the terrain didn’t change–you said it right there in your OP. It was streetcar stairs, and then more streetcar stairs. As several people, including myself, have observed, once someone has declined your aid, that “no” means “no,” until the person indicates in some way that they would like the help.

[Fuzzy_Dunlop]

@JThunder

@Fuzzy Dunlop

JThunder follows a rule of “etiquette” that states he should continue to offer his assistance even after it has been politely declined until he is either snapped at or is rebuked often enough for a pattern to develop and it becomes sufficiently clear to him that the woman means what she said the first time.

Once again, you are twisting my words around severely. You obviously consider that to be polite behavior. Most people do not.

I said nothing about pestering a woman until she finally agrees to accept assistance.

Neither did I. Who is misrepresenting whose words? I clearly said you persist until A) you are snapped at or B) you decide you’ve been rebuked often enough for a pattern to develop that you deem sufficiently clear.

@JThunder

You have already made up your mind that this involves standing there and badgering the woman until she finally agrees to accept OR snaps back with an angry rebuke.

I’ve been quite clear that I understand and disagree with your need for a “pattern” to emerge. I never said you’re unrelenting. I said once is enough and that you should assume women mean what they say instead of scrying for patterns.

@JThunder

In the same manner, you had already made up your mind that each situation upon disembarking from the streetcars must necessarily be treated in exactly the same way – that there can be no possible distinction. Did you even bother asking whether there was any difference? No – not until long after you had already made up your mind. When I posed this same question to my co-workers, virtually every one said, “The situation might have changed.” They picked up on that immediately, and they knew better that to insist that the world must somehow comply with their assumptions.

So you`re still not ready to explain to us what made the second street car so much more daunting?

@JThunder

Weedy is absolutely right. You are obviously insistent that yours is the only reasonable and absolute way, even though others disagree. As another poster early in this thread said, one should not deign to speak on behalf of all women (or for that matter, all men) in this regard.

I’m pleased that I’ve successfully conveyed at least this.

[Eyebrows_0f_Doom]

I still don’t see why a woman needs to be asked if she needs help to begin with. Just being a female on stairs doesn’t mean she suddenly forgets how to walk.

If she looks like she needs help, i.e. wobbly heels on difficult stairs, carrying a package/child, walking unsteady/drunk/elderly, etc. than sure, go ahead and offer help. I really don’t think anyone in this thread would say they have any problem with that, and if they were in that situation would probably appreciate your help, be they men or women. Gender means absolutely nothing in those situations, so I don’t understand why you’re making this out to be a men/women thing when it’s really just a matter of general politeness.

[JThunder]

@Shot_From_Guns

Possible translation: “I can’t come right out and tell you to stop doing that, but please stop doing that–you’re making some of the other patrons uncomfortable.”

I think that’s a stretch. The person did so with a smile, and I later observed that another staff member was also trying to help people down.

You certainly don’t seem to be giving the opinions equal weight. Any person who says “yes, you did the right thing” you are seeing as support and confirmation; anyone who says “no, you were impolite” is simply expressing another opinion, one which has absolutely no bearing on how you will conduct yourself in the future.

Not true. As I said before, I do see a middle ground in between the two, and I acknowledge that perhaps more care is in order when evaluating individual circumstances. I also repeatedly emphasized that a measure of tolerance and understanding is in order. I simply object to the notion of “Ask once and no more than that.”

But the terrain didn’t change–you said it right there in your OP. It was streetcar stairs, and then more streetcar stairs.

Not all of which are the same. Have you ever seen these antique cars? Their designs vary considerably, as does their state of repair. Same thing with the ground.

Besides, even if we accept that these particular situations were exactly the same, it’s still a vast overstatement to say that “Offer help only once” is a universal rule to follow, rather than a specific rule that would have been applicable in this particular set of circumstances.

@Fuzzy Dunlop

Neither did I. Who is misrepresenting whose words? I clearly said you persist until A) you are snapped at or B) you decide you’ve been rebuked often enough for a pattern to develop that you deem sufficiently clear.

That is EXACTLY the sort of misrepresentation that I’m talking about. The fact that you continue to insist on that statement is further proof that you are fully wedded to that notion, let the facts be damned.

It’s a misrepresentation because I have REPEATEDLY said that I think asking twice would be sufficient. Obviously, this is not the same as saying “continue to offer his assistance even after it has been politely declined until he is either snapped at or is rebuked often enough for a pattern to develop and it becomes sufficiently clear to him that the woman means what she said the first time.” Except in your world, perhaps, where completely disregarding someone’s words is an example of polite behavior.

You keep asking “So how was the second situation different?” but it doesn’t really matter. That’s not something that mattered to you from the start, and even after I pointed out that these were two different situations, you continued to insist that they were exactly equivalent, even though you had no way of knowing that.

How were they different? I don’t remember the exact details, but I do remember that some of these cars had higher steps than the other ones, and that some had not yet been fully restored. Frankly, I’m more offended by the fact that you continued to insist that these situations WERE identical, even though you have no way of knowing that, and then choose to heap piles of derision based on that. You are unwilling to accept even the possibility that they were different, just as you are unwilling to accept that any reasonable people may choose to adopt a point of view that differs from yours and (as Weedy says) everyone MUST follow your exact formula for approaching these situations.

[Telemark]

What are you looking for from this thread? It’s clear that you’re not going to satisfy everyone by offering unsolicited help to women.

At least some are going to be offended on the first offer, either because it seems skeevy to them or because they find it vaguely insulting that you are implying that somehow an adult female cannot negotiate stairs without help. Offering this a second time will certainly not be received well.

Some will think it unusual but will be neutral, either accepting or declining the offer based on lots of factors regardless of if they need the help. A second offer will be met with a similar variety of reactions.

Some will thing you a gentleman and accept the offer graciously. A second offer will be looked on favorably.

Given this, what are you looking for in this thread? People have expressed varying opinions and as far as I can tell they are all valid. They don’t agree with each other and never will. Your actions will be accepted willing by some, rejected vehemently by others, and there will be a middle ground. Knowing that, do you see any reason to change your actions?

[Shot_From_Guns]

@JThunder

I think that’s a stretch. The person did so with a smile, and I later observed that another staff member was also trying to help people down.

Have you ever worked in any kind of service-y job? Staff usually aren’t allowed to say anything negative to customers, so you have to be all passive-aggressive about it. People would be a lot less weirded out by a staff member offering a hand to anyone (male or female) who looked like they needed it than by some guy who kept offering a hand to all the women. (I.e., a *person *who is offering *people *assistance because it’s their job, not a *man *who is offering *women *assistance because of their chromosomes.)

I simply object to the notion of “Ask once and no more than that.” [snip] Besides, even if we accept that these particular situations were exactly the same, it’s still a vast overstatement to say that “Offer help only once” is a universal rule to follow, rather than a specific rule that would have been applicable in this particular set of circumstances.

I don’t think anyone here has said “once you ask, you are never allowed to ask again, even if the person is looking trepidatious.” If you’re concerned about people mischaracterizing your statements, perhaps you should take more care with that, as well. The consensus seems to be simply that no means no until the person in some way indicates that they may require aid–not because you think the situation has changed enough that their original choice is now rendered null and void.

[JThunder]

@Shot_From_Guns

Have you ever worked in any kind of service-y job? Staff usually aren’t allowed to say anything negative to customers, so you have to be all passive-aggressive about it. People would be a lot less weirded out by a staff member offering a hand to anyone (male or female) who looked like they needed it than by some guy who kept offering a hand to all the women.

As I said, this wasn’t just the case of a staff member making nice talk. Rather, I later observed that another staff member was specifically helping other people down. They perceived, as I did, that some people would have difficulty with these steps.

And it wasn’t “Some guy who kept offering a hand to all the women.” I don’t know if this is your intent, but some of you folks have insinuated that I was trying to touch a bunch of complete strangers. For the last time, no. This was exclusively for the people in our group, except for one elderly lady that clearly needed help. I don’t mind if you disagree with me regarding points of etiquette, but pelase don’t make it sound as though I was simply presenting myself to a bunch of complete strangers.

I don’t think anyone here has said “once you ask, you are never allowed to ask again, even if the person is looking trepidatious.”

No, but the claim was made that asking once was enough, and that one should not offer future help unless the other person asks. I appreciate that you feel this way, but I’m telling you that my female co-workers disagree. As one person said, sometimes the height of the curb changes from one location to another. And sometimes the ground is muddier or otherwise requires more finesse to navigate. This woman also said, “You shouldn’t have to overthink these situations,” and I agree.

[JThunder]

@Telemark

What are you looking for from this thread? It’s clear that you’re not going to satisfy everyone by offering unsolicited help to women.

And I agree with that, Telemark. In fact, if it were not for the flurry of other responses, I would have echoed your previous sentiment that we can’t expect to satisfy everyone.

At this point, I am NOT expecting everyone to come to an accord. That’s precisely why I say (for at least the fourth time now) that a measure of tolerance and understanding is in order. However, if people like Fuzzy Dunlop continue to insist that I advocate badgering a woman with insistent offers of help under she either accedes or lashes back with an angry rebuke, I am not going to let that slide.

As I said, if people want to disagree, that’s fine with me. Whatever you do though, don’t misrepresent what I’m saying. It’s ironic that people who demand polite, inoffensive behavior will also equate “Offering help perhaps twice” to “Offering help until the other person gives in or rebukes you until you finally recognize that they don’t want your assistance.” How in the world is that an intelligent response, much less polite behavior?

[wonky]

I find it funny that someone who is judging me based on my sex is saying that I need to be more flexible in my thinking.

[Shot_From_Guns]

@JThunder

As I said, this wasn’t just the case of a staff member making nice talk. Rather, I later observed that another staff member was specifically helping other people down. They perceived, as I did, that some people would have difficulty with these steps.

I didn’t think they were making nice talk–I think they were politely telling you to cut it the hell out, because it was their job, not yours, and you were clearly making at least one person uncomfortable by doing it.

This was exclusively for the people in our group, except for one elderly lady that clearly needed help. I don’t mind if you disagree with me regarding points of etiquette, but pelase don’t make it sound as though I was simply presenting myself to a bunch of complete strangers.

Well, if you really think all or most women want or deserve help, why aren’t you offering? And if you don’t think that, why don’t you take the first “no” at face value? And why is two refusals suddenly your magic number?

No, but the claim was made that asking once was enough, and that one should not offer future help unless the other person asks.

I think it was more like “unless the other person asks or in some way indicates that they would like help.” Stopping at the top of the step with an “ohshti” look on my face could be considered asking for help, since I am giving a clear external sign that I am not sure I can manage on my own.

What, exactly, is your objection to taking a “no” to actually mean no until the point at which the person indicates, verbally or otherwise, that they may now require assistance?

[wonky]

It’s also funny how the longer the thread gets the more people the OP has already encountered, conveniently offline, who think he did wonderful things. With that much support, how unusual to start a thread looking for yet more.

[Shot_From_Guns]

Oh, and:

@JThunder

At this point, I am NOT expecting everyone to come to an accord. That’s precisely why I say (for at least the fourth time now) that a measure of tolerance and understanding is in order.

Why do I need to “tolerate and understand” sexist behavior? And it *is *sexist if you’re extending to a woman what you wouldn’t to a man in the same situation.

[Fuzzy_Dunlop]

@JThunder

At this point, I am NOT expecting everyone to come to an accord. That’s precisely why I say (for at least the fourth time now) that a measure of tolerance and understanding is in order. However, if people like Fuzzy Dunlop continue to insist that I advocate badgering a woman with insistent offers of help under she either accedes or lashes back with an angry rebuke, I am not going to let that slide.

As I said, if people want to disagree, that’s fine with me. Whatever you do though, don’t misrepresent what I’m saying. It’s ironic that people who demand polite, inoffensive behavior will also equate “Offering help perhaps twice” to “Offering help until the other person gives in or rebukes you until you finally recognize that they don’t want your assistance.” How in the world is that an intelligent response, much less polite behavior?

What’s interesting is that you keep accusing you of misrepresenting you when youre the one misrepresenting me. I *never* said you would badger women until they acquiesced. I *asked* if you would once and you replied that you would ask until you determined the woman really meant it, which to you required two offerings. Ever since then I've assumed in all my posts that youre applying the “ask until I decide she means it” approach. I have a problem with “ask until you decide she means it” approach.

You can whine until youre blue in the face that I accused you of badgering women until they snap at you or acquiesce but it didnt happen.

Let me make it absolutely clear - you don’t trust that when a woman says no she means no. It doesn`t matter if you feel you need to ask twice or a thousand times. My objection is to you deciding when she means it. People deserve the respect of being taken at face value.

[Fuzzy_Dunlop]

@JThunder

As I said, if people want to disagree, that’s fine with me. Whatever you do though, don’t misrepresent what I’m saying. It’s ironic that people who demand polite, inoffensive behavior will also equate “Offering help perhaps twice” to “Offering help until the other person gives in or rebukes you until you finally recognize that they don’t want your assistance.” How in the world is that an intelligent response, much less polite behavior?

For what it’s worth, I never demanded polite inoffensive behavior. At best, I’ve been describing specific polite inoffensive behavior for a specific situation. Really it’s not a question of politeness it’s a question of whether women can be taken at their word or if we need to look for “patterns” to decide what women really mean.

But I never said people need to be polite and inoffensive at all times. I think I’ve been remarkably polite and patient considering what an ass I really think you are. So I wish you`d stop suggesting I’m being hypocritical somehow.

[Telemark]

@JThunder

That’s precisely why I say (for at least the fourth time now) that a measure of tolerance and understanding is in order.

This isn’t a one way street. While I’m sure you have the best of intentions (seriously, I’m not being sarcastic) offering unsolicited help to able bodied women is simply not a good thing to some people. They have no reason to be tolerant or understanding of something they perceive as a slight. To follow up with the attitude that “maybe they’re being embarrased and if I ask again later they will say yes” compounds the problem. You’re treating them in a way they don’t wish to be treated.

What I’m not getting from you is the acknowledgment that there are women out there who are genuinely offended by this. Women have fought for years to be treated seriously and have their opinions valued as much as a man’s, and they feel that the sexist attitude embodied by “offering to help women on stairs and then ask again just to make sure in case they were embarrassed” isn’t something they wish to be tolerant or understanding about.

[you_with_the_face]

The OP seems overly committed to playing The Gentleman role, to the point that he’s painted into a self-imposed corner. The whole “damned if I do, damned if I don’t” motif is all in your head. While some women like chilvarous overtures, others either are indifferent or dislike them.

Obviously, the woman described was in the last category. While her tone was needlessly harsh, she had a point.

I don’t think I’d mind a hand extended to help me off a streetcar. That said, I might regard a guy as weird/creepy if it seemed as he kept pursuing every opportunity to demonstrate how gentlemanly he is. If I’m on a date and the guy pulls out my chair, that’s cool. But if it’s that, plus all the doors must be opened by him, plus he gotta open my car door too, plus when we’re walking down the street he has to walk on the outside, plus etc then it becomes tiring. It would further grate if the overarching expectation is that I have to indulge* him *by accepting these unnecessary acts over and over again. As if he’s actually not doing any of this stuff for me, but rather his own self-image.

And also, unless you’re getting the opinions of people who are frank enough to tell you when your breath is stinking, don’t expect them to provide 100% honest feedback on this question.

[Infovore]

@Telemark

This isn’t a one way street. While I’m sure you have the best of intentions (seriously, I’m not being sarcastic) offering unsolicited help to able bodied women is simply not a good thing to some people. They have no reason to be tolerant or understanding of something they perceive as a slight. To follow up with the attitude that “maybe they’re being embarrased and if I ask again later they will say yes” compounds the problem. You’re treating them in a way they don’t wish to be treated.

Yeah, this is kind of the point I’m noticing. It’s like when you’re pulling out of a business in a car, and you need to get to the far left lane so you can make a U-turn but there’s a lot of traffic coming. Somebody in the closest lane to you will invariably slow down and politely wave you in. Problem is, you don’t *want *to just enter the closest lane. You need to get across *all *of them. So what do you do? You can either accept their offer of “help” (which is certainly sincerely given) and pull into the near lane, inconveniencing yourself, or you can wave them on, which might make them think you’re being rude.

Maybe not the greatest analogy, but for those of us who don’t like gender-based special treatment or chivalrous behavior but who have no desire to be rude, we’re stuck between accepting the offered help and compromising our own opinions, turning the offerer down politely, or turning the offerer down in a snippy or rude manner. I think most people would go for choice #2–the first time. But if it happens again, it’s just downright annoying. I know that the offerer doesn’t *think *it’s annoying–he’s sincerely trying to help. But for us anti-gender-chivalry types, it just focuses our mind again on the fact that somebody’s thinking “Oh, you’re a woman and I’m a man, and therefore it’s my duty to help you!” (Of course that’s not what the OP is really thinking (he’s told us so) but perceptions can be funny things. And being reminded that there’s a subset of humanity out there who think that because we’ve got X chromosomes we’re just inherently in need of assistance can be kind of galling to those of us who not only don’t want it, but even prefer to be the ones *giving *the assistance, not *receiving *it.)

Wow, that was quite a little rantlet, wasn’t it? And truly it wasn’t aimed at JThunder, but rather at the whole gender-chivalry thing in general.

[Crawlspace]

@JThunder

I simply object to the notion of “Ask once and no more than that.”

Then don’t be surprised when this shit happens again.

As has been plainly said in this thread, some people find your adherence to such a chivalrous code gentlemanly, some find it insulting, some find it creepy and will tell you so. Live and let live.

What really bothers me, and suggests that you’re not coming off as gentile as you hope, is the fact that you couldn’t just be rebuked and move on. You went home, dwelt on it, started a thread and have spent god knows how much time elaborating and justifying your position.

E-gads man, it’s not that big of a deal. If that’s how you were raised and are more comfortable acting, carry on and many people will appreciate it. Some won’t and will tell you so. Just don’t be surprised when this shit happens again.