Helping a woman down steps

[Broomstick]

@JThunder

In situations like this, I like to offer ladies my hand to help them down the steps, in case they need it. Predictably, some of the women accepted the assistance, whereas others declined. After visiting the second car though, one woman told me, “You know, you already offered once before and I declined. That should tell you that a woman doesn’t need help. You really shouldn’t offer a second time.”

What are your opinions on this issue?

I think it’s rather… odd in these days that you would automatically assume a woman needs assistance with stairs. Were these ladies 8 months pregnant? On stilleto heels? In period costume? Using a cane?

Unless one of the above applied to me (and currently none do) I would find it a veiled insult to imply I am too feeble to negotiate a few steps on my own. I wouldn’t be rude about it but I’d find it peculiar. Mama taught me to be polite even when weirded out, but really, though I’d probably just keep repeating “Thank you, no, no, I don’t need help, really, you are too kind” I would be getting annoyed inside.

Perhaps this was naivete on my part, but I was surprised by this reaction. On the one hand, I understand that women don’t want anyone to think that they’re physically incapable of traversing the steps. I would not interpret such gestures in this manner, though. To my mind, it’s akin to holding a door open for a woman. Most women can open doors themselves, but this is nevertheless understood to be a polite gesture.

It is a polite gesture to hold a door for anyone, particularly if they’re carrying anything, but you don’t have to physically touch anyone to do so. Granted hand-holding is pretty tame as physical contact goes but it’s still much more intimate than holding a door. I realize that for you this may be a kindly gesture but there are many cultures and sub-cultures were any physical contact between a woman and an unrelated man is offensive, even extremely offensive. Even beyond that, among many Orthodox Jews even a man and wife will not hold hands in public. Please be a little cautious in doing this with women you don’t know as I’m certain that you’re well meaning enough to not want to cause offense.

On a more practical matter, I can see problems with withholding one’s hand just because a woman declined the first time. For one thing, there’s no guarantee that she won’t feel that she needs help the second time around. For another, the woman might think, “Wait a minute. Why isn’t he offering help this time? Did I offend him? Is he snubbing me?”

Are these women also mute, that they can’t ask for help if they need it?

If you keep offering to help me when I’ve declined multiple times in the past hour I will start to wonder if you are hard of hearing, or have a memory problem, or something else wrong with you.

Again, your thoughts?

I think one “no, thanks” should be sufficient, after which you should trust women to be intelligent enough to ask for help if they need it.

@JThunder

If you don’t like that analogy though, consider the custom of pulling a woman’s chair out as she sits at a table. Most women are perfectly capable of pulling out their own chairs, and yet this is considered to be a polite gesture. In contrast, men are most certainly NOT expect to pull out chairs for other men!

Frankly, unless I was on a formal date or you were a close male relative I’d think it completely creepy for you to pull my chair out for me as I sit at a table. Do you associate with women who stare helplessly at chairs, waiting until some man comes along to rescue them? Do you do this for random strangers? Do you exist solely in a world of extreme formality?

Hilarity N. Suze brought up the point that for a woman not accustomed to this, or who is not expecting this, it can turn into a pratfall. Seriously, if I’m not aware you are doing this I may expect the chair to be somewhere it isn’t and wind up on my backside with my feet up in the air which, I’m sure we can all agree, is neither dignified nor helpful. If you must engage in this gesture please be sure to audibly say “allow me” or “let me assist you” so she is aware of all that going on behind her and does not inadvertantly do something embarassing.

@Siege

Now you, of course, are a gentleman and a Doper who would never dream of using physical contact as an opening to further your interests where they’re not wanted. None of the gentlemen here would, no matter how attractive the woman (quiet, guys – don’t shatter my illusion;) ). However, not all men are the paragons of virtue the men of the SDMB are and you’d be surprised at what some guys consider an invitation to just about anything they want. There are times when the lady is thinking, “How nice. He helped me off of that streetcar” while the guy is thinking, “She held my hand and squeezed it! She wants me!”

That may not happen often, but I’d be willing to bet most women have run into men who think minor, incidental contact is more than it is, and some have been
obnoxious about it. I still remember one guy who, when he saw me hugging a good, male friend, took that as an invitation to put his hand halfway up my thigh when he sitting next to me. When I called him on his behaviour, he told me that since I hugged my old friend, he figured it was OK.

^ This is something women go through all their adult lives. While most men are better behaved these sorts of slobs are permitted out in public without either a leash or a warning sign. It is one of several reasons why I do NOT want to be touched by men I don’t know well, even in the most minor way.

@JThunder

In fact, the woman who objected was one of my closest friends up until recently. So in this case at least, I don’t see this being a matter or refusing physical contact from complete strangers.

I don’t like to be touched by my male friends, either. It makes it a lot simpler to avoid all physical contact with unrelated men, it prevents misunderstandings.

@JThunder

I suppose that men could prepare a mental checklist. “Is she wearing a skirt? What kind of shoes is she wearing? How steep are these steps? How old is she? How tall is she? How muscular is she? Does she have a good sense of balance? Did she previously decline?” and so forth. However, that strikes me as demanding way too much in order to avoid offense.

How so? Unless you’re doing this for every woman you encounter it shouldn’t be that onerous. As a rule of thumb, if she wears pants assume she does not need assistance, if she has a skirt or dress then offer. However, if these are your friends don’t you care enough about them to treat them as individuals rather than as clones?

Seriously, I’ve had hobbies that were male dominated, and I now work in a male dominated job, and the men don’t seem to have too much issue with this whether they’re high school drop outs or doctorate level professionals - if a woman is wearing “practical” attire - i.e. traditionally male to the extent of pants and low heel shoes - assume she is as physically capable as a man. If she’s wearing skirt/dress, delicate feminine stuff, heels, etc. then offer assistance. They all seem to “get” this. I’m trying to imagine me helping to haul damaged water heaters and furnances out of flooded basements while wearing jeans and workboots, then the men getting all fluttery insisting on holding doors open while my hands are empty or assisting me down a step or two. Granted, that’s a little more butch of a situation than most, but seriously, is it that difficult to look at each situation separately instead of trundling through life in a robotic manner? When I go to Chicago and I’m walking around the Loop in jeans and sneakers it would be a little weird to have people offering to help me up and down the bus stairs or the stairs to the El (the modern equivalents of streetcars) but if I’m in skirt and heels it’s different - and yes, I’ve had offers while dressed in that manner and, because feminine footwear is less practical, particularly in winter, I’ll even accept such offers but, again, it’s situational.

I woudl rather err on the side of gallantry than analyze these situations in such detail – especially since some women are bound to respond by saying, “What the…? Why did he offer help to that woman, but not to me?”

And some woman would give a sigh of relief and think “Thank goodness he’s stopped with the baroque manners and thinking I’m helpless!”

People have to realize that these gestures are not meant as insults. They’re not meant to imply that the woman (or the man, for that matter) is somehow physically inadequate. Oftentimes, they are simply polite gestures, and that one must often err on the side of caution.

So… only your culture is applicable? As I said, some people, and quite a few of them raised here in the US of A, would find any physical contact between a woman and an unrelated man offensive. In which case “erring on the side of caution” would be refraining from offering your hand, or at the very least asking if she required assistance before offering your hand, and certainly multiple offers after the initial “no” would be problematic for such people.

@JThunder

In other words, it’s one of those situations where a man just can’t win. We all know the feeling.

Yes, and women, too, can be placed in no win situations where they feel compelled to touch people despite their fears of men misinterpreting innocent gestures such as that, and where they are called bitches if they attempt to keep a physical distance between them and other people in order to feel safe. It has happened to me that such gestures as you describe were used by men who were not gentlemen as excuses to put their hands under my clothing, pinch my ass, or touch my boobs, or otherwise do very rude things to my person. At which point, if I withdraw and very firmly refuse to tolerate it I’m “bitchy” and “a tease” and “overreacting”. Try to put yourself in a woman’s shoes for once, and consider that a woman might have such concerns that have nothing to do with you personally but rather arise because there are men who are not gentlemen and that they often first present themselves with a false front in order to get close to women.

I understand that you are trying to be gallant, polite, helpful, and respectful (and goodness knows the world can use more of that) but at least with strangers and acquaintances it might be better to say “Would you like some assistance?” rather than first extending your hand. Offer once, maybe twice, but not more than that. Perhaps, after the first decline, say something like “Don’t hesistate to ask if you need assistance” which allows her to know it’s a standing offer and not a one-time thing, but avoids the repeating question. Close friends and relatives are a different matter, as patterns of acceptance and decline should become apparent rather quickly.

JLThunder, by any chance are you in the South or from there? Because this strikes me as much more a Southern custom than one from anywhere else in the US. Assuming you are in the US, which I don’t know for sure.

[Tenebras]

JThunder, you keep talking about “polite behavior” as if there is a rule book out there in the aether and if you do all the things in that book, you will be a polite person. But there is no book and there aren’t rules like “offer only once and then never ask again” or “offer assistance until it has been refused twice, unless oysters are in season, in which case you should offer until the refusal includes the word `antinomy’.”

You have to ask yourself what the point of helping a woman down the stairs is. The way that you pose this issue (“if I don’t offer to help the ladies, people will think I’m not a gentleman!”) makes it seem like you’re worried about yourself, and not the people you’re helping. Being polite isn’t about you, it’s about the person you’re being polite to. If you’re doing it right, no one should notice it. If people do notice it, then you’re doing it wrong.

Note that is doesn’t matter how many people you find who agree that there might be circumstances when an offer of a hand is appreciated–that’s not the point. Manners/politeness/etiquette is the grease that makes social interactions work, but you don’t tune an engine by slathering it with grease because these two parts might rub together.

And Miss Manners agrees:

This brings Miss Manners back to that difficult question of why unwanted enthusiasm should appear to be only counterfeit politeness. She rejects the notion that excessive politeness is objectionable because it is insincere. On the contrary, its very desperate and dogged determination is what makes it unpleasant. It is perverse that people tend to be repulsed, rather than flattered, by the persistent devotion of those with whom they are not in love, but so it is. What sabotages the politeness of overenthusiasm, Miss Manners has decided, is that, in common with rudeness, it ignores the feelings of others. Even generosity requires monitoring the feedback and making adjustments in scale with how well it is or is not working. People who mean well, like people who don’t, offend when they are impervious to the reactions they produce.

Also:

Your friend has taken a rule of etiquette, altered the practice to make it meaningless, subverted its intent, and used it to give etiquette itself a bad name.

Link

[Shot_From_Guns]

Applause @ Tenebras.

[Telemark]

A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone’s feelings unintentionally.
– Oscar Wilde

If your goal is to be a gentleman, and you are offending people unintentionally, then perhaps you should re-examine your actions and assumptions.

[SmellMyWort]

I’m going to need pictures of the streetcars at each location before I make a judgement.

[PotLuck]

@Tenebras

You have to ask yourself what the point of helping a woman down the stairs is. The way that you pose this issue (“if I don’t offer to help the ladies, people will think I’m not a gentleman!”) makes it seem like you’re worried about yourself, and not the people you’re helping. Being polite isn’t about you, it’s about the person you’re being polite to. If you’re doing it right, no one should notice it. If people do notice it, then you’re doing it wrong.

I wanted to quote your entire fabulous post, but this is the part most pertinent to my semi-relevant anecdote.

Two months ago I took bus tour from Toronto to Manhattan with my sister and her theatre group. Most of the group was female and the average age of the women was 60-ish. Whenever we had a pit stop our driver, a 60-ish man, “knelt” the bus and put out a step stool. He would then stand to one side of the door and help the women off the bus by offering his right hand/arm and using it to support their weight. The bus had a sturdy handrail but many of the tour patrons were grateful for the extra assistance.

Sounds nice enough, right?

What struck me as odd was that this driver made a point of touching the younger and/or able-bodied females on the elbow as they left the bus, despite the fact that we didn’t reach out/ask for help. The first time he “helped” me off the bus by pointlessly cupping my elbow I was slightly taken aback because I’m an able-bodied woman in my early forties, but I wasn’t offended. I truly think he thought he was being “courtly”, not sexual or creepy.

Still, I didn’t want or need some strange guy putting his hands on me every single time I walked past him so the second time I exited the bus, I rejected his proferred arm with a polite but firm, “I’m fine, thanks” and he retracted his arm … and then touched my elbow as I passed. (I couldn’t help but think of the Dope thread about the woman who sat beside a handsy colleague during a seminar and repeatedly endured his unwanted touching without complaint and thought, “Cowboy up, PotLuck: say something now.”) The third time he crooked his arm at me I looked him in the eyes and said, “Thank you, but I’m fine. I can get on and off the bus by myself, okay?”

He responded by throwing his hands in the air and taking an exaggerated step back from the bus door. Now I was offended and felt ridiculous for an instant … and then I thought, “Fuck that; I’m not gonna have this guy’s hands on me two or three times a day for the rest of the week just because he wants to be a ‘gentleman’”. If that makes me “catty”, than meow.

Perhaps JThunder’s friend was equally willing to speak her mind and didn’t want to spend the rest of the trip saying “no thanks” to unnecessary and mildly condescending acts of chivalry.