Okay, Whack-a-Mole: I’m wrong, the Federal Reserve is wrong, and the actual black voters who lived through the Clinton years as working adults are wrong. You and the Nation magazine, that well-known bastion of negritude, know better than any of us. :rolleyes:
If only black folks had been smart enough to recognize their great white savior who had been hibernating in Vermont for fifty years between marching in the civil rights era and coming to save them in 2016.
The anger of white liberal Bernie followers toward black voters really comes across as “you ungrateful, stupid Negroes don’t even know what’s best for you and now you’ve fucked us all over”. Not a good look.
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So, in there, Hayes mentioned ‘genuine pain for some folks’ in the context of how Trump communicated. But the only actual, grammatical question in there is ‘What do - what do you make of that?’ What is ‘that’? ‘That’, to me at least, is the way Trump communicated, which appealed to some people, some of whom are about to be on the show, even though it inflicted real, genuine pain on some other folks. Sanders focused his answer on why it might be appealing to some. I mean, fuck, that’s a pretty interesting question to me still. Why the hell would anyone vote for this fucking clown?? So, yeah, the fact that that’s the question that Sanders basically answered is not a problem to me in the slightest. Most other things about Sanders, yeah, those are problems.
Agree, and I agree with what I assume you are also saying, which is that the Sanders wing is throwing black and muslim-American voters under the bus in pursuit of their ‘socialist’ agenda. And women, too. I just don’t think the material you quoted demonstrates it.
This. We have a choice. We can by our votes or lack of votes support the party of the fascist dominionist racist oligarchy,
the party of Vladimir Putin, Donald Trump, Roy Moore, Jeff Sessions, Steve Bannon, Sebastian Gorka, ex-Sheriff Arpaio, Paul Manafort, Roger Stone, Darth Cheney, Chris Cantwell, etc, or “ANYONE BUT THEM”.
I personally dislike the politics of purity and I tend to believe that what has been needed all along isn’t an ideology that’s pure but simply an intelligent form of incrementalism. However, that assumes that both parties are acting in good faith, and it’s been clear over the past 30 years that Republicans have been acting in good faith less and less, and simply replacing good faith with blind faith in whatever great white hope manages to raise enough money and enough of a profile to compete in an election. At this point, I would accept a Bernie Sanders, flaws, warts, and all, if it meant keeping Republicans out of office. The concern is what damage a Bernie Sanders type candidate would do to the progressive brand in terms of giving voters confidence that progressives can actually tie their own shoelaces and run a lemonade stand.
Do you really think that stamping your feet and demanding that you get or your way or you will hold your breath until everyone around you capitulates is adult behavior? If so, shut up and eat your ice cream.
What’s that, you voting for him?
Tell you what, you show up in the 2018 midterms, and you support the party, and we’ll consider taking you seriously. Show up in 2019 and vote in your local and state elections to support democrats at the ground level, and we may even listen to your opinion.
Stand there and whine that the party isn’t exactly what you want it to be, and you refuse to support it until it is, and you will be ignored.
Still on the “I know better than black people who they should have voted for” thing?
Maybe if you actually listened to some black people you’d know more about why they did not vote for Bernie. Or you can just continue to insist that you know better than actual black people who black people should vote for. Whatever floats your boat.
No, you have essentially been calling them stupid because they didn’t vote the way you insist would have been better for them. I’m pointing out that this is not a good look, and you might want to think about why you are so insistent that you know better who they should have voted for. If this is representative of the typical Bernie supporters’ mindset, it might actually explain it for you. You don’t reach out to them, you don’t talk to them or listen to them, you just insist that they should vote the way you say they should because you know better. It’s highly insulting and condescending. Look at how you feel when people say that Bernie or Busters should have voted for Hillary against Trump. Nobody wants to be told how to vote from a place of “I know better than you, so vote how I say”. Is any of this getting through?
And no, what I’m after is getting you to have a little self awareness of how bad this is coming across for you. I mean how many black people have you gotten to change to your way of thinking on this? Have you even talked to a single one? So how are you so certain what is best for them, and that you know better than they do?
No, you have cited ways that you feel Sanders was a better choice for them. They felt differently. I don’t need to answer anything, the actual results of the election tell me that maybe you don’t have your finger on the pulse of black America like you think you do.
And they had all the same information that you did, and yet voted the other way. We all saw the same anti Hillary memes Bernie supporters were sharing like there was no tomorrow during primary season. Black people use social media too. You don’t have secret knowledge on the subject. They just made a different calculation, as is their right as voters.
I’ve already suggested the best way to find your answers. Talk to them. Ask them. Why do you refuse to do the obvious thing to answer this question for you?
Also I am not a Clintonista, just a rational voter that wanted what was best for the country, I’ve said that I would have gladly voted for Bernie had he won the nomination, but he didn’t. What is irrational about that?
You and others have provided nothing and have resorted to attacking me.
Typical of someone with no argument. I have pointed this out and still you have nothing.
I’m still waiting for how the Clintons were great for black people. Surely it is not a secret if all the black people knew why Clinton was better than Sanders as you say.
You posted citations that convince you that Bernie was a better choice for black people than *the actual choice they made". I get how you feel, but you seem to have no interest in finding out why they didn’t vote the way that you insist they should have.
I’m not attacking you, but you are doing a good job of making yourself look pretty bad, with all of the condescension and refusal to even discuss the idea of actually just asking them why they voted the way they did. If you are really curious to understand, there’s nothing stopping you, just ask them. How do you expect people to be politically aligned with you if you refuse to talk to any of them?
All true. Additionally, when I posted an article from the Fed outlining how the black-white wage gap declined during the Clinton years for the first time in decades, this was dismissed with no counter-evidence. But every article I’ve read talking about African Americans’ fondness for Clinton cites their feeling that the ‘90s were good times for them, times they made progress after years of stagnation.
Also ignored: that the overwhelming majority of the Congressional Black Caucus voted for that infamous crime bill, as did Bernie himself.
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This is pretty fucking pathetic. We have Deplorables arguing about the evils of Racist Clinton (or something),
while we’ve had an administration infested by and supported by
Jefferson Beauregard “KKK” Sessions, Sebastian “Nazi” Gorka, Donald "Very Fine People"Trump, backer Robert “never met a fascist I didn’t like” Mercer, Mike “dominionism” Pence, Steve “Nazi” Bannon, Joe “kill the Mexicans” Arpaio, Roy “Little Girls Are Fun” Moore, Sean Donahue, Paul “Nazi” Gosar etc etc etc, Etc.
and we have banning people over their religion, deporting and scapegoating immigrants because of their race, coddling violent and murdering racists, repeating/retweeting sick violent memes by White-Supremacists, ignoring Right-Wing mass murder and rampant gun crimes while hyping bigoted foreign terrorism fears, Ignoring Climate Change which increases the threat of more intense hurricanes, storms, draughts, floods and fires. ignoring 1000 hurricane deaths in Puerto Rico, stealing funding from public schools to give tax payer money to private religious school mills that cherry pick the easier students but don’t get better educational results, threatening the Press with retaliation for not co-towing to his endless ego, selling off pieces of the internet to the highest bidder, blocking access to legal abortion to underage undocumented rape victims, knee-capping the agencies that protects consumers from rampant investment and banking fraud, threatening Black Football players with being fired for seeking legal non-violent redress of their grievances against the government, selling out the middle-class to corporate greed, disrespecting the families of our Fallen Vets, fucking up peoples health care, destroying our national parks, gutting safety and health regulations which put the environmental, consumer product standards and worker safety in dire peril, and systematically destroying our democratic institution
Refusing to support a party until they start caring about me and people like me is sure as hell adult behavior.
Me and everyone else given lip service but ignored in practice.
After I complete my move up North this spring, I will get to work for quality organizations and candidates for the midterms. Actual progressives; no corporate crooks/crypto-fascists. I will be happy to vote for quality candidates - this includes Berniecrat Democrats; any races that are between a Republican and “Republican lite” (i.e., typical Democrats) get left blank or, where applicable, get a write in or a vote for a Green, other progressive party, or independent. I research and find out about every candidate and prop on my ballot beforehand.
What ain’t gonna happen is unconditional/total support, not until the “mainstream” of the party drops its crypto-fascism. The Democrats must earn the votes of the underclasses; they are not entitled to them simply because they are a “lesser evil”.
Out of curiosity, DoggyDunnit, do you believe that Clinton would have been no better than Trump, or do you believe that by withholding your vote from Clinton (and similar candidates), you’ll force the Democrats to nominate candidates more to your liking next time? Or is there a third option I’m missing?