You…do understand how American voting works, right? As on. at the end, you have exactly 2 viable choices?
Do I assume you’re one for whom voting is purely an academic exercise and you don’t see much change in your daily life from one party’s control over another? Must be nice, is all I can say about that.
We fully agree here. DoggyDunnit has explicitly admitted that what is most important to them is to feel their pweshus “hands are clean”, which for them means voting for some theoretically ideal candidate who has no chance of winning—not only so as not to compromise their values, but so as not to actually have to take any responsibility for the things the candidate does once they get into office.
Of course, their hands are not truly clean atl all, because failing to act to prevent evil is semi-evil itself.
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This is what you are hanging your hat on?
The counter evidence is in the article I cited. The gap narrowed because they started throwing so many black men into jail they were no longer included in the stats.
I am sure you can cite these articles for us then.’
So far you have one thing to support your assertions and that has been done away with.
Both, sort of. Hillary would have been more of the shitty-ass status quo, which for me and many others like me - those of us in the real struggle at the bottom of society who neither party cares about, was simply not an option.
Secondly, it’s about “my people” giving the Democrats some schooling. Put forth quality candidates, win elections. Put forth mediocre crypto-fascists, and lose because we’re tired of CFs who talk all this game but don’t actually do much of anything for us. Shut up about the fucking “middle class” for 2.5 picoseconds and earn our votes by showing you care about those of us on street level.
And, thirdly, Trump, to me personally (and to many others), represented (and represents) a chance of seeing the whole motherfucker come down, which presents an opportunity to stand up and find better lives amongst the chaos.
Yup, I do. I watched CGP Grey’s Animal Kingdom series. First past the post, etc. Having two viable choices is fine, so long as one option is actually substantively different from the other. Think “a burger or a burger with a couple pickles on it” versus “a burger or a chicken sandwich”. We gotta have real choices. 
And yes. Yes! You’re soooo close to getting it! 
Warm as hell! Whether typical Republicans are in control, or typical Democrats are in control, my life is the same “streets struggle”. Fighting to survive, fighting for life, fighting for the necessities that the bourgeois and petit bourgeois are determined as hell to hoard and keep away from me. Ain’t even just pure economics, either - I continue to struggle to have much in the way of simple human bonds. Ostracism stacked on ostracism.
In short - and really chew on this for a while - when one is dumpster diving no matter D or R, one tends to stop seeing a difference.
The only ones who have much to lose under Republicans versus under Democrats are the petit bourgeois. And since y’all (your statement implying you have something to lose depending on what party’s in power basically gives me the impression you’re PB) have shown no concern or care for me, I get to show no concern or care for y’all.
I ain’t got shit to lose, myself, so whatever. Hell, the more of y’all who are hosed down enough to end up on street level with me, the better - it’s hard in today’s culture of sociopathy for someone to wake up unless they know what it’s like to be at the rock bottom of society.
Responsibility? Y’all’re a hoot! Why is it my “responsibility” to care about the petit bourgeois and what happens to them but ain’t no courtesy shown towards people like me?
Is my heart supposed to bleed because some “middle class family” (fuck that cliché, by the way) has their taxes jacked up or whatever making them not be able to afford that new SUV or kitchen remodel? The poor dears! :rolleyes: How’s about feeling good there’s actual fucking food in that kitchen in the first place?
I AM acting to “prevent evil” - by being a mature progressive who only lends my support to people, parties, and organizations who are about everyone, including people like me. “lesser evil” is still fucking evil - how hard is that to understand? :smack:
I didn’t say anything about “middle class families” or taxes. And FTR, my family was on food stamps from 2008 to 2010, on WIC from 2008 to 2017, and my four kids got their health care from Medicaid from 2000 to 2017. We would not have had those crucial benefits without the center-left Democrats you disdain.
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Never said you did. Just was using an example of rhetoric that’s often sent my way regarding my stance on Democrats.
As far as daily life goes…no, there’s not much change.
As far as the lives of some others go (human and non-human), yeah, there’s a difference.
Can you explain exactly what a “crypto-fascist” is?
You keep calling the democratic party a party of them, and I assume it is an insult, but it really sounds like just a snarl word you throw at people you don’t like.
If it is those who work with the people in financial and manufacturing sectors to keep our economy running smoothly, as opposed to socialism ideals that, instead of working with the private sector, seek to eliminate it, then you are just going to need to form your own party.
Democrats aren’t going to nominate a socialist. Just because the democrats are closer to that then the republicans doesn’t mean that that is the direction we are going, or even that we desire to go. I wouldn’t mind moving a bit further left, but you just want to go straight to nationalizing everything that doesn’t give you the results that you think it should. That’s not just non-viable politically, it’s also a terrible idea.
Go join Bernie in his socialist party, and tell the socialists how to be socialist.
A lesser evil gives the rest of us a chance to see things we care about voted into effect; purity gives us no place at the table to talk. Conor Lamb would never have come this close to victory in PA if he had run a Bernie Sanders race. But I guess Bernie Sanders’ supporters just want to pretend that eventually people in rural Pennsylvania - or Kansas or wherever - will become more enlightened and vote just the way rural white folk in Vermont do. It’s a kind of condescension that’s not likely to persuade anyone at all; it will simply succeed in polarizing people more and dividing up progressives into factions with coarser attitudes toward each other. That’s why Bernie’s Bros are essentially a left wing version of the Tea Party. And while the Republicans did get some mileage out of that movement, it would appear to be an increasingly toxic brand with limited shelf life.
The “whole motherfucker” includes things like rule of law and political accountability, though. I mean, it seems like the worst thing about the Trump administration generally is the brazen conflicts of interest and corruption getting normalized or shrugged off. You think that a period of chaos is going to be helpful for the powerless? I think it would be much more likely to end up with the US being like Putin’s Russia or Duterte’s Philippines, where the rich/powerful/connected can do exactly as they like and if you don’t keep your mouth shut you just get killed out on the street and no one will do a thing about it.
Posts 328-330 are all really good and deserve to be recognized as such. No insult to 328 or 329 to say that 330 is the most insightful of all. Kudos!
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I can appreciate that as a personal perspective based only on personal experience, however, there are real differences in the social safety net, common good services, educational opportunities, worker protection, and civil rights of marginalized populations when Dems are in charge. To suggest otherwise is incorrect at best, malicious at worst.
I am often amused at Americans who think they are living ‘at the bottom.’ Go tell that to someone from Rwanda or Ecuador, and then be sure to duck. Even while dumpster diving and living the struggle ‘in the streets,’ you still managed to either own or find a public means of engaging this online community. What a country, eh? And the suggestion that somehow you’ll bring us all down to your level and that will improve your lot? Laughable. Not in its naivete (I tend toward optimism, myself), but because we have actually seen how that plays out over and over again in history.
This, in its entirety.
The kind of Bernie Bro “purity” you are saying NO to, is exactly what we need to avoid.
The Dems need to push the things people are directly affected by, and care about. Safety. Health care. Accountability. Pro union. Supporting allies around the world. Ethical government. A “pro second amendment” view that is coupled with sensible gun laws, such as universal background checks. Be against tax giveaways for the rich. Be pro education. Be pro-choice. Favor religious freedom for ALL, not just for a few racist prosperity bible thumping heretics.
Conor lamb did it right. So did Doug Jones. They have given the blueprint for all to follow.
And encourage Trump to ummm hee hee ha ha “help” Repub candidates right down the toilet as he did in Alabama and Pennsylvania. The more his toxicity rubs off on them, the better for us. Weaponize that orange asshole against them.
But demanding a “purity test”, and fighting against anyone for not being “Bernie - ish” enough is stupid.
Besides, what is this crap about crypto-fascists, when we are now dealing with REAL fascists?
I agree with almost all of that, but I’m not so sure Trump’s visits hurt in AL and PA.
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I can’t remember if I said it here or elsewhere (my apologies if I already mentioned it) but the Democrats need to understand something going forward: there are the local races and then there’s the big one, the presidential race. In local races, the blueprint is to support the candidate that can win as a Democrat, provided they’re willing to support at least some of the core Democratic principles. Taking Conor Lamb as an example, he probably wouldn’t support severe firearms control restrictions but he probably would support stronger background checks. He probably wouldn’t support Medicare for All, but he probably would support strengthening Medicare and expanding Medicaid, especially since a lot of Republicans seemed okay with Medicaid expansion. Conor Lamb was able to win in a Republican stronghold because he wasn’t a Republican. That’s good enough for me, and it ought to be good enough for everyone else in the party.
The bigger challenge will be the presidential elections, which is when you have to bring the different factions together and have them enthusiastically support the winner. Chances are, the winner is not going to be Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren, and if it were, I wouldn’t give them much of a chance to win the general election.
I liked Bernie and would have voted for him if he had won the Primary. He didn’t, so I voted Clinton (and feel good about that).
I like Warren, and she is a fighter, but she can’t win. She would be a lightning rod for banks, Wall Street, corporate heads etc. They would spend stupid amounts of money and spread all sorts of lies to make SURE she got polarized. And, the holy rollin’ bible thumpers of the “religious right” would be on her for being “an uppity female”.
It’s important to note, too, that Warren lagged significantly behind Obama in Massachusetts in 2012. A large number of that state’s voters split tickets, voting for Scott Brown and Barack Obama, despite the fact that Obama’s opponent Mitt Romney had recently been a popular governor of the state.
She did win, obviously—but only because there are so many Democrats in Massachusetts. She would not have the same luxury in a national race.
And her false claims of being a racial minority are really pretty deadly politically speaking.
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Many Americans have delved into their heritage as descendents of America’s First Victims. I have affirmed such connections myself, my tribal name is Dances With Vulvas.
But semi-seriously…in Texas, white families with a mixed American Indian heritage is as common as dirt, even more so in Oklahoma. Ms Warren’s Cherokee heritage is neither unusual or remarkable.
Warren’s my senator, and I’m happy to have her in that office.
If she ran for President she’d be lose decisively. Besides what SteveG1 and SlackerInc pointed out, she often projects a scolding schoolmarm vibe when she gets impassioned.
Unfair? Ayup. A practical problem nonetheless? Ayup.
I was appreciating Bernie’s contributions to politics years before these kids were born. I remember when he was elected mayor of Burlington in what, 1981? and got a Doonesbury strip about him. Over 35 years his record built up plenty of respect and goodwill on my part. When he announced, although I never supported him over Hillary, I remember being well disposed toward him anyway. Then suddenly all these hotheads rose up who had only just heard of him, lacking any historical perspective.
It took only half a year for the Bernie freaks to completely demolish the respect and goodwill of decades I had felt for him. The crazier and more toxic they got, the more I cursed the day I ever heard of Bernie Sanders in the first place.