You know what, FUCK YOU dale. Trump has to lose. All Potential voters against Trump for the Democratic candidate are welcomed. You are the fucking problem. You act like Trump in your weird ass hatred of Sanders and his followers.
Be happy Bernie lost if you want and rejoice that Biden has a fairly good chance to beat Trump. But goddamn it welcome all Bernie supporters into the tent. We need every vote we can get to end this national disgrace.
You suck Dale, you do. Get better. Do it soon. Don’t be like Trump.
Oh FFS! How many times do we have to go through this? This is not just about a vote for Biden. This is about who gets to appoint the next SC judge or two. This is about whether the ACA gets support or gets dismantled. This is about the DOJ and every government institution that has been eroded in the past 4 years.
This is why Republicans win elections and Democrats lose. Because Republicans know what they want and just fuck. Democrats/Liberals/Progressives need flowers, dinner, romance and to feel like they’re respected by not being rushed.
Seriously fuck off if you need Biden to make you feel special. We all wish it was Liz or Cory or Pete or Bernie. But it’s not. It’s Uncle Joe or the orange assclown. Get your priorities right.
If it were 20%, you’d have an argument. Not a great one, but it would be there.
But there isn’t going to be a revolution, progressive progress has almost always been incremental (see the ACA, SS, etc) because American’s (like most humans) are uncomfortable with change.
Fast forward 100 years from now. We’re all dead and in heaven (or hell, in my case). Manwhich will still be there to tell us we’re making a big mistake, and that Barack Obama III is a corporate puppet and that Bernie Sanders is the real progressive to lead the Federation of American States.
That is, sincerely, one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard.
If people followed your advice, and the 30-40% of progressives in the democratic party take your advice and stay home, and Trump wins, will that be a victory for you? Will you have a sense of satisfaction?
I guess you’d have some sort of sense of purity, which is ironic, given the subject matter and stance.
It will be more like “Please explain to me why Barack Obama III (who is just a neo-neo-liberal shill for the MegaCorps!) is any better than the Global Omninformational Device, the psychotic Artificial Intelligence whose sole purpose is to spend eternity devising new and unimaginably painful tortures for the vile human meat-bags which it despises with every fiber-optic connection of its being?”
How much more time? How much more encouragement and welcoming?
Those of us who really dig Bernie and his ideas but realize (twice now) that he will not be the one to lead the Democratic party have recognized that Plan Biden is better than Plan Trump. Given our shared experience of the past 4 years under Trump, I’m wondering how much more time & encouragement will be required by Bernie supporters to come around to the fact that Bernie lost and Biden is better than Trump.
I realize you’re not the official Bernie supporter spokesperson and you don’t officially speak for anyone but yourself. And anyway, we’re all just talking on a message board here. Still, if what we say matters even a little bit, I think it’s high time for some tough love messaging for your fellow Bernie supporters. Bernie is officially out. We’ll give them consolation hugs after the all clear is called on this pandemic.
“tough love”? There is honestly, absolutely no love involved in “shitbag”. All frothing hate and anger. Encourage Sander supporters to vote, but don’t be a blind tool for spiteful toxicity.
What is “tough love” and why do you feel the need to punish and hurt Bernie voters? I can’t see any reason other than vindictiveness, which you clearly have.
“When can we start being shitty to the Bernie supporters” is such a toxic question.
I have no loyalty to the democratic party. I think Joe Biden is a terrible candidate, and if he wins, which I actually doubt, will be a pretty awful president. You can try to convince me that he’s the lesser evil - and that’s an argument with merit - but we have a managed democracy set up to constantly rule us by forcing us to make the lesser of two evils choices. That does not sit well with anyone. In fact, that sucks. It’s going to make me sick to my stomach to vote for Joe Biden, a guy I think is a terrible candidate and president, but I’m going to do it because of the exceptional evil of his opponent. A lot of people feel this way. Please stop trying to make it even harder. Because you absolutely will push people from “I guess I can hold my nose and do it but I fucking hate every part of this” to “you know what, fuck it, I’m not going to bother”
It’s funny that you guys expect us, who have no loyalty to the democratic party or Joe Biden, and who do not like either, to vote on your side, no matter how much it disgusts us. But you can’t, yourself, simply refrain from not being hateful and vindictive and giving “tough love” and rubbing it in our faces that we have to do it. You try to convince us how important it is that we throw aside our principles to fight Trump, and yet you yourself, and your sort, won’t even refrain from taking a victory lap or insulting us, because that little bit of hateful satisfaction is worth more to you than beating Trump.
He’s stated multiple times that he thinks Bernie is worse than Trump. He has all but stated that he would rather see a Trump presidency than a Sanders presidency (or maybe he has stated it explicitly, I don’t know).
Encouragement and welcoming have ZERO COST, which is why I advocate nothing but “encouragement and welcoming”, which can include serious arguments and “tough love”, when talking to Bernie supporters. Insulting them, however, could have a real cost – i.e. turning off Bernie supporters and reducing the chances of their support against Trump.
What’s the argument against encouragement and welcoming? Why would you not want to do this when you’re talking to Bernie supporters?
My argument is entirely pragmatic. I don’t care about “deserve” – I care about effectiveness. There’s no risk in being encouraging and welcoming, but there is risk in being insulting.
While that’s ridiculousenough, he’s taken it to a totally new level. He’d rather see a Trump presidency than a Biden presidency because Bernie voters are “unworthy” to vote for Biden. He hates them so much that he’d rather Trump be president than to be on the same side as Bernie voters. That is - and I don’t say this in the internet hyperbole way - insane.
I’ve got plenty of posts here from last year that attest to my deep desire to have someone besides Biden be the nominee. But it’s him or Trump, and Biden’s light-years better than Trump. Hell, even Mike fucking Pence would be better than Trump right now, and Biden’s light years better than Pence.
So the object is to make sure Trump is no longer President next January 21. Actions that undermine progress towards that goal are bad. It’s that simple.
Depends on your goal. Is your goal to judge people and throw shit at them? No more time; start flinging your turds posthaste.
Is your goal to maximize the chance of getting Trump out of office? ALL THE FUCKING TIME IT TAKES THEN, up to election day. If you got some aggro you gotta vent, go play Fortnite. In politics, do the things necessary to persuade on-the-fence voters to come down on the right side of the fence.
“Tough love” is overwhelmingly a phrase used by people trying to justify abusive behavior. There are exceptions, but this ain’t one of them.
Not zero cost. That’s lost opportunity cost and time.
In a vacuum, this might be correct. But, by and large, most Democrats already ARE encouraging and welcoming. Yes, I know there are exceptions, but there always are. What is being asked is beyond this - to justify and satisfy requirements beyond reason. And that incurs a time and opportunity cost that can be spent on people who we would expect to be less amenable, such as disillusioned Trump voters, fence sitters, or people who may need more encouragement to simply vote, much less vote for Biden.
Saw on Facebook: “Bernie Sanders supporters are toxic and undermine party unity. It is vital that I, a Biden supporter, go online several times a day to tell everyone how toxic and terrible they are.”
So is insulting them. If you’re going to engage with Bernie supporters, be encouraging and welcoming, because it has zero cost. If you choose not to engage with Bernie supporters, and put your efforts elsewhere, that’s fine too. But insulting them wastes that “opportunity cost” as well as potentially reducing their likelihood of voting against Trump.
Once more, with feeling: I’m for virtually every single Sanders policy platform. I have reservations about how honest he was about how much it was going to actually cost and who would ultimately pay for it (A: A lot & Everybody), but that aside, I was and remain for it. Unlike many of you, I grew up and lived half my adult life in a socially democratic society. I know its pros and cons. It is clear to me that America is not ready. It is clear to me that even most Sanders supporters are naive about what it will really mean to implement such a system in the US. None of which makes Sanders wrong. All of which is the reason Sanders did not get the support he needed.
Now, “tough love” means that it’s time for Sanders supporters to accept that fact and realize that a vote for Biden is not capitulation to the DNC, not just a vote against Trump, but a vote for many other critically important progressive values. It may be a small step but it’s the right step in the right direction if you are serious about the kinds of positive progressive social change you want to see in your lives and the lives of your children. So my version of “tough love” is to make it clear that you need to get over your short sighted views about Biden. He’s a far cry from perfect. I’ve admitted countless times that I wish it was Warren, or Booker, or Buttegieg, or, yes - Bernie. But it isn’t. So just accept it. Or it will be another 4 years of Trump and a whole lot worse to come.
The focus of the Biden campaign and the Democratic Party should be to woo folks in the middle, voters who are undecided between Democrat and Republican. The idea that they need to spend their time and effort wooing staunch supporters of a Leading Democratic Candidate is ridiculous.
It highlights the very thing that makes me despise Bernie Sanders. He is a Democrat when the Democratic Party gives him the opportunity to grasp power. The moment that opportunity slips away from him, so does his support of the Party. He, and many of his supporters want to be in charge of the Democratic Party, but refuse to support the Party if they aren’t in charge. That’s not how this works.
Absolutely false. Bernie ran 16 campaign rallies for Hillary Clinton, which is twice the number that Clinton ran for Obama. Bernie absolutely, unequivocally endorsed and worked hard for Clinton to be president. He didn’t try to weasel out of supporting her or hesistate in any way. He consistently and emphatically asked his supporters to vote for her.