Hilary Gets Booed by Heroes. Had it coming?

Great Debates
21

Wouldn’t that be anti-McCarthyism? Objecting to an organized effort to destroy individuals? Even the core members of the Get Clinton cabal acknowledge it existed and exists.

The Get Clinton for Something Campaign had been in full swing for years, looking for something, and finally found something that wasn’t and isn’t anyone else’s business. It’s spelled “hypocrisy”, btw - “hypocracy”, if it were a word, would mean “government by the low”.

Then it shouldn’t be hard to list even one serious example.

A. After years of trying, Starr couldn’t come up with any evidence of that.
B. You see a connection? As if most Jews were going to vote for D’Amato otherwise?

See your comment re McCarthyism, and review the subject with your history teacher.

Cite for her connection to either? And not just from Free Republic?

Three disinterested Democrats, all former Clinton supporters, reported that years ago she called someone a “Fucking Jew Bastard.” She also made anti-Semitic jokes to her Jewish political advisor, Dick Morris. She has supported terrorist groups in the Middle East.
[/quote]

Cite for any of this? And not Free Republic?

That was part of the Clinton administration mandate, if you’ll recall. Please also acknowledge that legislative change would have required action by Congress. How is addressing a problem, and surrounding yourself with people who are familiar with it (which is what the committee was), “arrogance” rather than “confidence”? Note also that she was appointed to the role by the elected President.

Nor have you, or any of your favorite right-wing commentators, ever apologized for any instance of years of constant slander, or even slowed down its pace.

Failing to find something in the place you’d expect it to be is “ignoring” it? Please.

Get out of the mudpit and see the world around you. Life is too short to be so full of hate, and even lies.

22

It isn’t, really. It’s an opening to get a certain segment of the political spectrum, exemplified by December and a few others, to examine their own views and statements and in a more objective way than they are perhaps used to. Exposing hypocrisy, in short.

The words of the Senate Republicans’ elected leader in similar recent circumstances are still fresh: “We can support our troops without supporting the President”.

It is plausible to believe Lott represents the views of the above-mentioned segment of the spectrum, and that he and they haven’t changed much since 1998.

23

People don’t get respect because they have a title. People earn respect. And, Hillary Clinton is so far from respectable that it isn’t even worht talking about. Unfortunetly, Platonic respectability isn’t a requirement of an elected office because if it was most of our over-rated, career politicians wouldn’t even get the signatures to run for office.

Besides, every American has the right to free speach. If they want to boo her then so be it. If she doesn’t like getting booed then she should either cow-tow to the booers, or avoid them altogether.

There could be some debate about when it is appropriate to boo someone because EVERYONE has the right to free speach. But, this is altogether unrelated to respect.

24

Why in the heck was the Fire Commissioner booed?

And BTW, I don’t think the booing of the Clintons has a thing to do with political partisanship and am a little offended that you’d suggest the fact that they were booed indicates conservatives are slow to rally. What the hell? I might boo the Clintons too in a different venue were we not in a time of national crisis but it would be because I dislike them so personally for their lack of moral judgement, not because they’re democrats or left-leaning.

25

Elvis, your post appears to have been written in haste. I will respond once, but am not interested in debating the topic at length. If you don’t agree that my statements are factual, let’s leave it that some people hate HRC because they believe these statements.

Huh? Hillary was part of an organized effort, trying to destroy individuals who were telling the truth about Monica. And, she must have known (or suspected) that it was the truth. It’s now obvious that the stories about Monica and Paula Jones have been shown to be true, rather than the product of some conpiracy. (Well, maybe Rush Limbaugh and Free Republic were conspiring to tell the truth ;))

Sure. That’s the nature of politics. There’s also a get Bush, a get Gore, a get Helms, a get Kennedy, etc. Each party seeks to disclose corruption on the part of the other party, thank goodness.

OK, here are 2. She told a New Zealand audience she’d been named after Sir Edmund Hillary, although she was born 4 years before he became famous. She told a “60 Minutes” audience that there was nothing between Clinton and Gennifer Flowers.

More precisely, he didn’t come up with enough evidence to prosecute. (Also, it was a Democratic procutor, Mary Jo White, who’s been investigating the Hassidic Jew vote scandal.) Regardless, the facts are so extreme, that they permit only one reasonable conclusion.

:confused: All I’m saying is that people who oppose left-wing government have a reason to dislike her, just as those who oppose right-wing government have a reason to dislike Reagan.

Three disinterested Democrats, all former Clinton supporters, reported that years ago she called someone a “Fucking Jew Bastard.” She also made anti-Semitic jokes to her Jewish political advisor, Dick Morris. She has supported terrorist groups in the Middle East.
[/quote]

Cite for any of this? The first part was in a book published during the campaign. I’m surprised you missed the flurry of news at that time. I heard Morris describe the precise comments she made to him on TV and I also read them in his column.

Good question. These are related concepts. Dictionary.com defines arrogant as:

  1. Having or displaying a sense of overbearing self-worth or self-importance.
  2. Marked by or arising from a feeling or assumption of one’s superiority toward others: an arrogant contempt for the weak.

Her assumption that she was fit to revolutionize the American heal-care system across to me as her feeling superior to others.

The same source says, “One who is arrogant is overbearingly proud and demands excessive power or consideration:”

It seems to me that she received excessive power over health-care reform; I assume she had asked Bill for that power.

26

You know, if the press were nearly as liberal as so many like to claim, this incident would be getting reported all over the place. And if Hillary were similarly as liberal as so many like to claim, she’d have been presented as a martyr for having endured this. Neither happened. Drudge, Limbaugh and O’Reilly put their two cents in, but of course they fixed on the fact that she was booed, not simultaneously cheered and booed, as Stoid pointed out. Big difference. By this we can see that there wasn’t a groundswell of Hillary-hating among New York City’s firemen and policemen and the rest of the crowd, but that there were some thoughtless, tasteless mouthbreathers among the crowd who just had to get their licks in, despite all this talk about how we’re “all coming together” these days. As a passionate opponent of Bush, I still wouldn’t dis the man at such an event. I don’t know why America’s right-wingers are so caught up in this.

I don’t know who around here is familiar with the political cartoonist Herbert Block (aka Herblock), who died earlier this month. Herblock started cartooning during the Hoover administration, and kept at it until August 2001, when he fell ill at the age of 91. Anyway, Herblock was unquestionably a liberal, and his cartoons made no apologies for his liberalism. When Richard Nixon appeared on stage, unshaven, to debate Jack Kennedy in 1960, Herblock started drawing Nixon with a perpetual five o’clock shadow. However, when Nixon was elected president in 1968, Herblock stopped with the five o’clock shadow, “out of respect for the office of the president,” as he put it. Even during Watergate, Herblock drew Nixon clean-shaven.

I’m not saying that this consideration is unique to liberals or even to liberals and moderates; I’m just citing Herblock as an example. Conservative political cartoonist Jeff MacNelly never let his beliefs get in the way of good taste, either. I’m sure that there are plenty of conservatives and even right-wingers who are capable of treating people decently and not spitting on our nation’s institutions, particularly at charity events. If George W. Bush or John Ashcroft were at a charity event, I probably wouldn’t clap too enthusiastically when they approached the podium, but I’d still clap. But this disgraceful behavior seems to be part and parcel to the Get-Clinton crowd. It’s all well and good to dislike Bill Clinton or even all Democrats, but the vocal, public behavior of these people is monstrous, and makes me ashamed to call myself an American, at least as far as these people are concerned. There’s no excuse for such behavior, no matter whether the media’s been calling you a “hero” for the past month or not. With such public esteem comes a measure of responsibility. In America, no one should be beyond reproach, even people such as these. Especially people such as these.

I was going to dissect all of december’s petty swipes at Hillary Clinton, but ElvisL1ves already did a capital job of that. I’d just like to add one point:

If this is relevant, then what business does Tom Ridge have being in charge of homeland security, since he has no previous security experience? What business does Christy Whitman have being in charge of the EPA, since she has no environmental science experience? If you were to strip the cabinet of anyone who doesn’t have significant (or any) experience in the field that their department deals with, you wouldn’t have many more people left, besides possibly Colin Powell and Paul O’Neill. And the same is true for any president’s cabinet, or of any president’s appointees, so I’m not playing partisan here.

27

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves *

Come on, Elvis. You do a very good job refuting december’s other points, and I was expecially impressed by the bit about McCarthyism and Communism. But you don’t really believe she “failed to find something in a place” she “expected it to be,” do you?

Do you?

Forget about telling december to get out of the mudpit. Take your head out of the sand.

Or don’t. But I’ve got some land in New Jersey you might be interested in…

28

Grey Matters:

It’s called respecting the office, not the man.

For all you know the cop that pulls you over might be an alcoholic wife-beater and a bigot, but when he pulls you over and asks to see your license, you give it to him. There is a line between Hillary the person, and Hillary the Senator.

It’s not a question of free speech, it’s one of appropriate behavior.

29

blacksheepsmith I meant that one expects to find one’s files in one’s filing cabinets, not under one’s bed. If she really had never wanted to have them see the light of day, why did she allow them to continue to exist? Not because of fear of a subpoena; december has already explained that she “ignored” it.

No, this is an example of a “theory” lacking internal self-consistency. When put in the pattern of the anti-Hillary hate campaign we’ve been treated to for lo these many years, I submit there is no credibility to this allegation, either.

Thanks for the other kudos, btw.

30

These statements seem a bit circular to me. If you assume that everyone who cheered for Hillary was a Hillary supporter than it automatically follows that all the “Get-Clinton” people booed. But I would suggest that there were many in the audience who opposed Hillary but who believed - as do several conseravtive posters to this thread - that to boo in such circumstances would be highly inapropriate. (And in light of this, the applause of these people is indeed not particularly newsworthy).

31

Elvis;

Under the bed?

That’s where I hide stuff, too. :wink:

32

No contest. People may think GW Bush is a doofus, but they don’t have that burning, passionate, hatred for him that they do for either of the Clintons.

33

Interesting, even given its “tempest in a teapot” status. I had assumed that she was scheduled to speak longer than the 20 seconds she actually spoke, leading (or rather, leaping) to the conclusion that she cut it short and skeedadled.

Over at Drudge, the link to the article leads to a blank page, so theres nowhere to go on that. (Ohhhh, that perfidious liberal press! One need look no further than the merciless persecution endured by G. Gordon Liddy for his lighthearted suggestion that Federal Agents be shot in the head, since they wear body armor.)

Kudos to December, for his excellent satire of what a blindly reactionary Dittohead would post (though, apparently, some missed its ironic intent and seemed to think you were serious) Rare wit, indeed! Hillary a Communist! Very droll!

34

No argument with that. Pity they’re not interested in their truth, though - they, including you, will believe what they want to believe, however foolish and hateful that makes them appear.

No, this was something well beyond that, into attempted personal destruction. How else can one justify fascination with sex lives? And to using that as leverage to overturn elect

OK, here are 2. She told a New Zealand audience she’d been named after Sir Edmund Hillary, although she was born 4 years before he became famous. She told a “60 Minutes” audience that there was nothing between Clinton and Gennifer Flowers.
[/quote]

First: “Reported” only in American Spectator, the Scaife magazine (and you do know who he is, I trust). No other corroborating information anywhere, such as a quote. All sites that come up on a search trace back to that Scaife article, if at all (which is rare). Repeating somebody else’s lie doesn’t make you a truth-teller, just a fool.
Second: Why do you think she didn’t believe it at the time?
Summary: These are the worst lies you can think of, even if true? Damning, damning statements, both. :rolleyes:

Facts? What facts? Any? No.
There is indeed only one reasonable conclusion, but yours certainly ain’t it, however much you’d like it to be.

:confused: All I’m saying is that people who oppose left-wing government have a reason to dislike her, just as those who oppose right-wing government have a reason to dislike Reagan.
[/quote]

Nice attempt at backpedaling there, but it won’t wash. You do know what Communism is/was, don’t you? You do know what McCarthy was fond of accusing people of, don’t you? You do have some evidence or examples that her positions match Communist views, don’t you?
Or maybe not. Maybe you don’t know and don’t care to know. But be very careful discussing it with people who do.

Three disinterested Democrats, all former Clinton supporters, reported that years ago she called someone a “Fucking Jew Bastard.” She also made anti-Semitic jokes to her Jewish political advisor, Dick Morris. She has supported terrorist groups in the Middle East.
[/quote]

Cite for any of this? The first part was in a book published during the campaign.
[/quote]

Again: Cite? And are you claiming Dick Morris as a neutral, honorable, objective source for something?

Re arrogance, Chance The Gardener’s answer is better than mine would have been.

Re the other litany of Hillary stories you’ve sampled from, Snopes is our friend. A search on “Clinton” will take only a minute.

Oh, and yes, before anyone flames me, her opponent was Rick Lazio, Al D’Amato’s protege, not D’Amato himself, of course.

35

I really do hate it when this happens, but I can’t help myself. I think there is a miscommunication between us and I think you are using the word respect incorrectly. However, your incorrect usage is a very popular usage so I will give you that. First letts define it, Respect:

I was, of course, referring to the third meaning of the word respect. You were referring to the second meaning and trying to combine it with the thrid.

Now, I don’t disagree that PEOPLE in general, regardless of holding some title or office, deserve special attention. However, during a public gathering it is a human custom to cheer or jeer a speaker before, after and during their speach. If we apply your use of the word respect, then that is exactly what the crowd was doing; it just wasn’t positive special attention. Now this is where the misuse comes in. You were trying to combine the two meanings of respect. You were trying to say the crowd should have given special attention WITH high or special regard. This is just a matter of semantics, I know, but it is important.

I think EVERYONE deserves special attention. I think that EVERYONE has to earn a high or special regard.

Hillary deserved special attention and that is just what she got from the crowd. Hillary has absolutely no respect from me.

Sorry, for the confusion.

36

IzzyR, please quote me in context. Your citations of what I said leave out a crucial part of the equation. Maybe you were just skimming the paragraph, looking for buzzwords or something; that’s okay. But, if you would, please go over this paragraph that I wrote in the above paragraph:

Considering the whole of what I wrote, I should think it’s clear that my point is valid and solid. I’m not coming down on everyone who dislikes the Clintons, but rather the rabid, frothing clods who will stop at nothing and at no law to bury Senator Clinton and her husband. Big difference. I don’t mind people disapproving of anyone—particularly in politics—but my sole complaint is with those who clearly take things too far.

Certainly there are conservatives who don’t like Hillary Clinton; I have no problem with them, necessarily. It’s the poorly-socialized ones who degrade not only our civil institutions but the very essense of humanity whom I loathe. The rabid, categoric, uncivil pursuit of Bill Clinton that began with a cabal of unscrupulous muckrakers as early as 1992 logically breeds such shameful behavior. I hope you’re proud of yourself, Ken Starr.

No elected official is above reproach, but these people took it too far, and still do. Ken Starr is the champion of the politics of personal destruction. Anyone—conservative or otherwise—who approves of this neomccarthyist is guilty by association.

37

Chance, although you and I have different POV’s, I’m impressed with your reasonable tone. I have a few respectful quibbles.

Maybe so, but another interpretation is that the liberal press was covering up how much she’s hated. YMMV

Actually O’Reilly played the audio tape (as did Rush), so the audience could hear both the boos and the cheers. (FNC – “We report, you decide.”)

Herblock has been famous longer than I’ve been able to read (1948). His recent death was a great loss.

HRC isn’t the President; she’s a Senator. Herblock (appropriately) was never respectful to Joseph McCarthy, who I see as HRC’s role model.

Ridge does have experience as a marine and as Governor of a large state, which could include security-related responsibilities. OTOH HRC had never been elected or appointed to any government position. She’d never been a manager anywhere. Her only experience was practicing law. (BTW a friend of mine used to manage a consulting unit of a Big-6 Accounting firm. His then wife decided to co-manage the unit, and he foolishly permitted her to do so. If you want to see hatred, talk to his subordinates about her!)

I agree. IMHO CW is Bush’s weakest cabinet appointment. However, at least CW didn’t come in with the intention of totally re-structuring all public and private environmentalism. She’s mostly letting the pros at EPA do their thing, so she can’t get the country into too much trouble.

Actually, Bush’s cabinet has the most relevent experience in my memory. Don’t forget Rumsfeld, and also Ashcroft, who was a 2-term state AG as well as a governor. IMHO effective selection of key personnel is a particular strength of W – a strength that’s serving the country well during this crisis.

38

So I guess it is safe to say that you do not hold the office of Senator in any great esteem? Or President, prime Minister, pope, King, Doctor, etc? Each individual person has to prove themselves to you before you will treat them with the sort of decency and politeness you do those who have already managed to earn your esteem previously, no matter what?

stoid

39

Grey Matters:

I understand respect, and I’ve been consistently referring to the third definition.

You may have little respect for Hillary the person.

You may have little respect for Hillary the politician.

At the benefit though we have Hillary the Senator, honoring the dead, and raising money for the survivors.

That is the capacity she is filling at a benefit, and when she is booed there, you are booing her in that capacity.

It’s an insult to the people who died, and to their survivors, as it detracts and derails and debases the proceedings.

It shows a lack of respect to the office of Senator, and to the dead of WTC.
I know a guy who received a citation for bravery from the President a few years ago. This guy is about as right wing as they come and literally hates Bill Clinton.

He is very proud of his citation though.

He didn’t receive it from the man, Bill Clinton. He received it from the President of the United States.
Do you remember Bush’s speech when the whole house, Democrat and Republican stood. while George Bush poke about the aftermath?

Do you remember that pretty little pregnant widow, the one who’s husband died charging tthe terrorists in the plane that went down in PA?

How do you think she would have felt if people were booing while the President was talking about her dead husband?

40

Chance the Gardener,

Sorry if you feel I quoted you out of context (I too hate when that happens). I took the “Get-Clinton crowd” to mean those who oppose and seek to defeat the Clintons, which I am sure includes many who would oppose them politically and legally, but would not boo them at such occasions. If you are merely referring to

and

then your statement that

is true by definition, and hence meaningless.

But I remain unsure if you really mean this. Using your example of Ken Starr, you seem to regard him as being particularly loathsome. And yet, by all indications, he is not the type of person who would have booed Hillary at that event.

I guess that would include me.