His4Ever, since you have rejoined us, please do accept my apologies for being overly harsh with you the past few days. I’ve been undergoing some rather difficult spiritual changes, and I’m afraid they left me a bit testy.
Also, if someone else would be willing to start the thread, I would genuinely be interested in comparing notes with you and others about the roles sacraments such as baptism play within our respective churches.
Respectfully,
CJ
Mars Horizon’s channeling me! Baptismal Regeneration, as I understand the Church of Christ’s teachings of 30 years ago (they didn’t call it that) means it’s a requirement for salvation, necessary but not sufficient. They may not teach that anymore, I’m not sure. The belief was well-known enough that there were lots of jokes about it - including one I’ve told here about a man having a fatal heart attack at the font, at the moment before baptism. (Was he saved? Depends which way he fell.)
H4E - I also was too harsh. Forgive me. Can you confirm yea or nay whether you go to a Church of Christ, by the way? Were you born in it? (My family was 100% Church of Christ back to Alexander Campbell days. I have issues, to be very frank.)
Kirk, I’m quite aware that I do need to do much more study of the Bible. Recently I reread the story of Adam and Eve, and I came away in awe of what a beautiful myth it was. I couldn’t believe what I was thinking, but as a myth, it is very powerful.
Moreover, of course anyone who spreads the gospel of Jack Chick is doing the work of Satan. Christians are to spread the love of Jesus, not the inane tripe of Mr. Chick.
To top it off, I have looked seriously at the Catholic church. I can’t seem to warp my head around the need to accept the Church in its entirety – there’s still things that while I know the reasoning behind them, I have trouble accepting.
reprise, while I’m sure this is so, I’ve felt rudderless in my faith for…how old am I now? 
Besides, what can anyone say?
Okay, I’m just scared people will try to proselytize me.
cuauhtemoc: absolutely , on both counts. That’s what makes literal belief in the Bible so difficult.
Yeah, that’s exactly how I should have said it! Thanks, ouisey!
Of course, when I ask God, I just figure He’ll give me the same non-answer He gave Job.
Velma, while your view is the nice way of looking at predestination, how can one help but think that if God gave to some to be His children, he must have given to others not to be His children? (I’m not schooled in logic, however, so I could just not be seeing some logical fallacy with predestination.)
The vast majority of the world’s Christians are batpized as infants. In fact, those denomiantions that are most adamant about denying baptism to infants are those that are most likely to be fundie hate cults, and not Christian churches at all.
The vast majority of the world’s current Christians, to say nothing of the great Christian doctors, fathers and Saints through the ages, would disagree with you. What makes you right and every so many of the great minds this religion ever produced wrong? Clearly, they are better versed in the Bible and what it means to be a Christian than you ever could be, given what we’ve seen of you here.
Certainly. The Grace imbued at Baptism washes away all mortal sins committed up to that point, but will not prevent the penitent from sinning mortally again at a later date.
Kirk
Just a question from a (currently) fair and impartial observer. Are we talking about the Church of Christ that does the following:
*Lord’s Supper taken every Sunday morning
*no instrumental music
*only men lead services
*each congregation is self-governing, with no central authority
If we are, I can help answer some questions. If not, I was never here.
-brianjedi
**
It is. That’s because, while the structure of the story itself is mythical, the underlying message rings true for those who are theist: ie, Genesis 1 & 2 isn’t really about a garden and a snake and pomengrates that make you smart, but about the fact that God created the world and everything in it, and created all of it for a purpose.
I’m not entirely kosher with the Church right now, which I suppose is to be expected. I’m probably more of a crypto-Episcopalian these days. However, and Polycarp can back me up on this, I did used to be a halfway decent Catholic apologist back in the day. What, specifically is it that concerns you? You could start another thread about those issues. It could be interesting.
Kirk
Princhester: Actually, I see the real bone you’ve got with me here. You think I accused H4E of telling fibs about her religion. I didn’t. I maintain she’s telling lies about other people and thus doing the same to the big guy, i.e. deity. Your parody and your inordinate attachment to it didn’t help matters much.
Phase 2 of my master plan (bwahahahaaaa!) has now been set in motion; I have invited H4E to return (I see that she already has, in a way…).
I am desperately struggling (and almost certainly failing) to take a neutral stance here:
Is there anything left to say that hasn’t already been abundantly said? is there any worth in repeating the same accusations and demands? (however reasonable and justified they may be).
Perspective: there are more posts in this thread alone than H4E has made in her entire term of membership; it has been said that she has ignored the reasoned responses and only addressed the aggressive ones, perhaps this is a valid criticism but I wonder how many of us could (in ‘real life’) defend or even properly explain any of our views in a calm and civil conversation, if the majority of the people in the room were shouting abuse…
I can understand the validity of logically equating “X is an abomination” and “Authority Y says X is an abomination and I accept authority Y as wholly true”.
I can see how ‘homophobia’ can be reasonably considered dangerous or socially oppressive.
But can we settle down and give H4E a little breathing space? Please?
Even if you consider her to be the defintion of ignorance, it is not unreasonable that ‘fighting ignorance’ may encompass a variety of methods, including extraordinary patience. I’ve seen that happen before here.
I don’t quite know how to end this post, other than to say that in another place and time it could easily have been me arguing for the innerancy and ultimate authority of scripture; I don’t think I would have fared any better (I also don’t mean to suggest that I consider myself ‘more enlightened’ or better now, just different - a considerable chunk of that ‘difference’ is attributable to my time here).
I think what I would like to hear from His4ever is something different from what I’m hearing now.
What I’m hearing now is:
My only motivation is to save you from your sin. I commit less sin than you, and so am qualified to quote scripture about abominations. I am more pure than you, and so I am qualified to pray for you on your behalf.
What I’d like to hear is something like this:
Yes, because of how I interpret scripture, I think that homosexuality is an abomination. But my own sins are equally abominable. I pray for myself, that God will guide me to love you as He loves you, and as He loves me.
That seems a reasonable suggestion Lib.
When I had gone to church, i had been saved, but i have never been baptised. However, it has been a good ten years since I quit going to the church that i was saved at.
Hello, Libertarian. I don’t know if I’ll ever be able to say things the way you would like but yes I"m a sinner also. Saved by grace. I strive not to sin, and fall short. I ask His forgiveness according to 1 John 2:9 and go on. I’ve never said that I commit less sin than you or that I’m more pure than you. It’s Christ’s righteousness I’m clothed with, I have none of my own. But please let me point out that there’s a difference between someone who is a Christian and struggles and fails now and again than a person who constantly deliberately over and over continiues committing and living a life he or she knows is sinful and yet it doesn’t seem to bother them in the least. One would have to question whether that person really knew the Lord, only God knows. I know that when I fell into a particulary grievous sin several years ago, I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was wrong. I felt the conviction of the Holy Spirit but I ignored and pushed Him away for awhile. I finally stopped thank God for He made sure I was caught in this sin. I’m still very sorry today it ever happened. It wasn’t worth it! Anyway, I didn’t mean to go on so long but as you see I’m not perfect. And believe it or not, I do care about you guys, enough not to whitewash the truth. I guess many just can’t see it that way. I wish I could explain myself better. I do pray for God to guide me to love you and I also believe it’s right to pray for you.
At the present, I go to Second Church of Christ. We are an independent church, no denominational headquarters to answer to. We just answer to the Lord. 
Oops, forgot to answer you question. No, I wasn’t born into this church. I remember most of my growing up years was spent in a Christian church that was of the Disciples of Christ denomination. While I was attending that church, we decided to leave the Disciples of Christ and become independent over a certain matter I won’t mention as it’s a hot topic here .
Apology accepted. I’m truly sorry for the difficult time you’re going through. I can only pray the Lord will lead you in the right direction. I will be thinking of you. In Christ, His4ever
see, the Straight Dope is addictive, isn’t it?
IMHO, baptism isn’t necessary for salvation.
But me and my son were dunked (and the people in church had the authority to do so).
Its just an outward statement to the world that you have been changed.
His4Ever, do they give out Chick tracts in your church lobby?
They did in my old Foursquare church.
Also- a question: Is being homosexual a sin? And if so, how could one possibly be saved of it?
His4ever wrote:
Ah. And therein lies the crux, doesn’t it?
But you have drawn a distinction that God does not draw. Where in scripture does it say that the man who sins deliberately is different from the man who sins accidentally? God, in fact, sees all sin as the same:
There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. — Romans 3:10-12
Even those with good intentions, who fancy that they at least try, are not exempt from that. Even while you say that your sins are no less than anyone else’s, still you cling to a self-righteousness that is not from God: you say that your intentions are better than the intentions of others. And yet, as you yourself have said, “only God knows”.
I spoke to you in weeks past about putting burdens that are heavy upon men’s shoulders. One such burden is that a man should be like you, that he should have your intentions, that he should strive the way you strive. And yet, the yoke that the Lord gives men to carry is light and easy to bear.
Use the same yoke the Lord uses, a yoke that is not heavy, to put upon the shoulders of your brothers and sisters. Put upon them the yoke of forgiveness, kindness, mercy, and love. How will you answer the Lord when He says to you, “I gave you a light burden, but you placed a heavy burden upon others.”?
Stay as far away from judgment as you possibly can. Do not even judge intentions — not even if, so far as you can see, they intend nothing at all but evil. Remember, only God knows.
You have been given much, and so therefore much is expected from you. Not much judgment. Your judgment, whether about sin or intentions to sin, is worthless. All that is expected from you is love. That is what your Lord commands you to do.
That, and that alone.
I’ve started a GD thread wherein I would like to see a discussion about baptism (I have much to learn); please do me the favour of NOT linking or mentioning this pit thread there though.
Libertarian: You didn’t miss H4E’s comment about being clothed in righteousness, did you?
I pray that no one who is clothed in righteousness wear his clothes the way the Pharisees wore their robes.
If a man who is clothed and warm happens upon a man who is shivering in nakedness, what ought the clothed man to do if he professes Christ as his Lord? Explain how he got his clothes, or take them off and put them on the naked man?