No, it isn’t putting you on my bad side, but I fail to see where H4E (or you or anyone else) was vague. I enjoy a good debate (and a good flaming), but plainly, she’s not interested in the standard debate format. She also isn’t interested (at this point, anyway) in treating her fellow man with basic respect. She’s not stupid…just terribly misguided. I don’t think she’s having difficulty comprehending anything we’ve said to her. She just doesn’t agree with us. Why would I want to continue with someone who has said, “Thanks, but no thanks”. When a fundie comes to my door, I expect them to back off when I say “no thanks.”
On the other hand, there are (and will continue to be) others that listen and learn. I enjoy the back-and-forth on this one, as long as we know that the tide isn’t likely to change. Carry on!
Hmm … I have to say I’ve had a different experience with the DC-area bigots, who veil their bile under things like the “Good News” Bible, or the Revised Standard Edition. Folks in NE, from what I can recall, use the KJV, though. It’d be interesting to see what causes for variation there is. I remember the haughtiness with which some long-time NE folks I knew scorned any non-KJV Bible. But these are the same folks who scoffed at a family who’d “only” been in New England 150 years. ::shrug:: Jerks, like Bertie Bot’s all-flavor beans, even come in dirt and vomit.
The NRSV (New Revised Standard Version), though, from what I can tell, is almost universally hailed as shit in a dust jacket. Those of us who prefer the Bible as a storybook of sorts have to deal with, quite frankly, shitty writing, and the people who depend on whose lovely phrases about abominations and such … well, they don’t quite have the same bite, IIRC.
Well… According to the Zealots of His day, the Messiah was supposed to lead the righteous to conquer Rome.
And, strangely enough, Jesus did just that.
gobear: I think Triskadecamus could say it better than I, but you most certainly do have a spirituality. Spirituality does not necessarily mean religious belief; it means, at minimum, having standards and goals you set higher than your own self, being willing to be moved by what you find poignant or awesome or worthy of praise. You believe in doing right by your fellow man, you are moved by art and music, you even sometimes return kindness for anger. You are out to stand up for what is right despite any consequences to yourself; this thread proves it. And, unless I miss my guess, you’re not unwilling to recognize a God worthy of the name – but you don’t see one in the petty tyrant presented to you as worthy of worship and fear by the fundamentalists. Would that I had your spirit at the times my life seems worthless and pointless!
People without spirituality don’t “feel the reverence and awe I felt there.”
I think what upsets me isn’t when His4ever states her beliefs in detail.
It’s when she drops in, unannounced and says, “You’re all being disrespectful and blasphemous!” Like in the thread about Jesus’s adolescence. It was totally uncalled for.
THAT is where she opens herself up to attack.
gobear, you might like St. Anthony’s in Troy Hill, on the North Side. It’s a cathedral that’s actually a museum of relics of the saints. Whether or not you believe in that stuff, it’s really neat to see some of the artifacts.
If you’re ever in Pittsburgh, or come to a PittDope, maybe that should be on the itinerary. I only was there once, when I was a snooty adolescent and I hated every minute at the time. I’d love to go back there now.
of course, He will let homosexuals in.
Lib, isn’t there a verse which says, prostitutes and theives willg et in before you?
(I don’t mean you but thats what it says
Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
I don’t believe that the prostitutes remained prostitutes after coming to Jesus. That would make no sense whatsoever. Remember, Jesus said to the woman taken in adultery, "Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more. He didn’t expect her to remain in her life of sin. I’m sure her life was changed from that moment on.
I think in the verse in Matthew listed above that Jesus is saying that the people going into the kingdom used to be prostitues, adulterers, fornicators, etc. But they repented and believed on Jesus whereas the Pharisees did not. Repentance means changing your mind and turning around. They didn’t remain adlulterers, fornicators, etc. according to 1 Cor 3:9-11
So what exactly are you saying? Of what precisely are they to repent?
I am not being belligerent in asking this – I’ve found that there’s a big communication gap between what Joe means by a “sesquipedalianist” and what Harry thinks Joe means, or what Harry means when he calls himself one is not what Joe thinks he means by the term.
And therein lies many a Pit thread. As you’ve already found to your dismay.
His4Ever, back in the 1980’s, several prominent Christians, including Jerry Falwell, confessed to adulterous affairs. Kirkland, I understand underwent a major religious conversion to Christianity, yet remained a homosexual. You converted to Christianity some years ago, yet you have been divorced twice. I’ve undergone a major, life-changing religious experience, yet I remain generally stubborn, argumentative, and downright ornery at times.
Tax collectors are a necessary part of society, although I suspect Libertarian may disagree with me on this one. I’m just cynical enough to suspect that prostitutes will be a part of society until the end of the world in whatever form it takes.
My point is I don’t believe that becoming a Christian automatically changes one’s base nature. If one is inclined to commit adultery, that inclination will still be there. If one is inclined to cheat, that inclination will still be there. If one is inclined to argue with poor innocent Fundamentalists, that inclination will still be there. The God I worship accepts us as we are, while wishing we might become more than that.
I’ll also point out that there is a basic difference between prostitutes and tax collectors and homosexuals. Namely, the first two are professions which one chooses. The last is a biological attribute which one doesn’t choose. I cannot choose to be gay, any more than a good friend of mine can choose to be straight.
Also, as always, in my beliefs, the words of Christ always outweigh the words of Paul. I don’t know who I’ll see in heaven, assuming I make it there myself. I’m sure there’ll be some people I’m surprised to see there, just as there are some I’ll be surprised not to see. In the end, I’ll take the traditional Christian copout and assume God knows what he’s doing.
By the way, Christ did not tell the Samaritan woman at the well to go and sin no more. He simply told her what she was, then told her who He was. She went away the first person recorded in the Gospel who proclaimed Christ to be the Messiah.
I’ve just thought of one more point. In Christ’s time, there wasn’t a lot of other professions open to ex-prostitutes. In fact, I’d be surprised to learn that there were any. They also weren’t commonly considered marriageable as a rule. In other words, if prostitutes were no longer prostitutes after they found Jesus, how did they put food on their table?
