Holy crap! Man be-heads fellow passenger on Greyhound in Manitoba!

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
161

Well, a bunch of them were turned away at the border. But they are assuring the press that other, less consipcuous douchebags are crossing in at another location. And police said they don’t plan on blocking the protest “but were prepraed to be on hand if necessary.” The Winnipeg Police.

Oh, yes, I can see it now ::wavy lines indicating fantasy::

Operator: “911, what is the nature of your emergency?”

Concerned citizen: “Send the police! An angry mob is blugeoning a bunch of whackos with their own signs!”

Operator: ::snickers:: Tee-hee! Riiiiiight. We’ll sent someone right over! Yup, right away! ::wink, wink::

Operator gets up and goes to the bathroom. Comes back, calls police dispatch, gets transferred to officer in car near cemetery.

Operator: An angry mob is blugeoning a bunch of whackos at the cemetery.

Officer: ::guffaws:: Yeah, you should see it, it’s pretty funny. The one with the cowboy hat is crying.

Operator: ::snickers:: So “you’re waiting for back-up” then?

Officer: Nah, back-up is already here. Why do you ask?..

Seriously, the Winnipeg Police are kind of well-known for being a touch “aggressive” and not overly-prone to put up with shenanigans.

162

And now it seems that PETA – People (who are) Entirely Tasteless Assholes – have tried but failed to run an ad likening the bus beheading to animal-rights abuse. Story here.

163

This case was back in court yesterday. Based on the psychiatric reports, the judge found that Mr. Li is fit to stand trial: Accused in bus beheading fit to stand trial.

The accused waived his right to a preliminary hearing and the matter will go straight to the Queen’s Bench. Looks like the main issue will be whether his mental state at the time of the events means that he is not guilty by reason of mental disorder.

164

Thanks for the update, Piper. While most of my sympathies lie with the dead man and his family, I can’t help feeling bad for Mr. Li as well, now that he’s back in his right mind. My impression from the news articles is that this was a true case of temporary insanity, and now he’s left with the horrific memories of what he did while under the influence of a mental illness. On the other hand, this:

pisses me right off. If he’d gotten treatment when he knew he was ill, Tim McClean would probably still be alive.

165

Even if he did not have mental capicity at the time, I expect that he will be put away in a psychiatric institution for a very long time – perhaps for the rest of his life, unless he is able to demonstrate that he will not go off the deep end again.

166

Unfortunately, the nature of schizophrenia is such that a lot of them do not realize they are sick and will resist all attempts at treatment. I am currently rotating through a psychiatric hospital and see this issue come up every day.

167

A question: if he is found “not guilty by reason of insanity” because of his mental state at the time of the attack, but he is capable of standing trial (which presumably means he’s not insane at the moment), will he simply be released?

168

Also, in addition to this, ‘getting treatment’ isn’t as simple as it may seem to anyone who has never been there (either themselves or loved ones). It can be hit or miss at best, and unfortunately, a lot of times it fails completely. So even with ‘help,’ Mr. Li could’ve theoretically ended up in the exact same position.

169

“Not criminally responsible”, not “not guilty”.

170

Quite right - I’m still using the old terminology. I shall try to adapt to modern times.

171

No - under the Criminal Code, if you’re found not criminally responsible, the court orders further mental assessments to determine if the person poses a public risk. If so, he goes into secure custody, and then gets the level of custody determined by a review board from time to time.

The level of mental ability to be found competent to stand trial is fairly low - does the person understand the charges, the court process, the role of counsel, and so on. A person with serious mental health issues can meet that test, and yet still pose a risk to the public because of the mental health issues.

172

I found out the other weekend that my Step-mom worked with him. She manages certain routes for the Journal in Edmonton and he was one of her carriers. She said you get an idea for people when you’re out at that time of morning every day, and she never would have expected it of him. He was apparently one of her more normal carriers. He just didn’t show up one day, and then she didn’t hear about who it was until a few days later (she had a few days off).

173

Try “NCROAMD”: Not Criminally Responsible On Account of Mental Disorder. Hey, abbreviating it was the only way I could keep up with taking notes at this part of my Criminal Law course.

174

pah. acronyms. we hates them, precious, we hates them.

175

It’s been nine years and this matter is back in the news.

Li was found Not Criminally Responsible and has been in a number of pschyiatric institutions since then, with gradually increasing freedoms.

News item today that he’s applying for full release by the Board. Victim’s mother is opposing full release because that would mean no ongoing need for Li to check in to the Board about meds, keeping under doctor’s care, etc.

One lawyer who handles these types of cases says he doubts the Board will give full release.

176

same here in the us … quite a few are just a little corner of the bar with a ticket maker and a schedule … which made for an interesting trip as I was 13 who ended up sitting in a texas bar … lets just say when Texans make money they like ot share …

apparently the driver was local because when he heard "old wally"received his yearly oil check he didn’t bother to inquire as to why we were all smashed just told us to ask for a motion sickness bag if we needed one

177

Northern Piper, thanks for resurrecting this zombie thread…

I haven’t heard the judgment yet, it’s expected this hour but as I live in Winnipeg, Manitoba and was also living here in 2008 when the crime was committed, I have a few thoughts.

I’m a complete non-expert in these matters, first of all, but my City and province went through a great deal of education and learning about schizophrenia and how desperately ill Vince Li was at the time of the murder. Vince Li, btw, is now Will Baker. He changed his name legally a few years ago when he got community release. He has received treatment and taken his meds. He is described as a model patient. The doctors in Selkirk and then in Winnipeg, treated him, and then advocated for gradual release.

There is a tremendous amount of fear still, when the subject of Vince Li comes up. His victim’s family has been unrelenting in seeking justice for Tim McLean’s death, and that is their right. It just seems hard for them to accept how terribly sick Vince Li was. Yet the medical establishment has not caved into that fear, and they have given Li more and more freedom, and he has responded well to that.

There is a similar case in Ontario, that of Sean Clifton, who attacked a young woman named Julie in 2001. Clifton also has schizophrenia and at the time he said he heard voices telling him to attack her. Over the years, Clifton received treatment and his victim’s family forgave him as did Julie, who acknowledged how very sick he was. Cite,

I believe Clifton has received full discharge and is in the community. He takes his meds but no one is forcing him to.

I don’t know what accounts for such different reactions to similar stories. The Clifton and Li situations have close resemblances, and in some instances, Clifton has been congratulated for making a recovery of sorts and reintegrating into the community. I doubt Li will have similar success because even if he does get full or even limited release, the community here is very unforgiving.

That’s my two cents.
Cheers,

A

178

Fear will do that to you. I don’t think it’s unreasonable for the community, for its own safety and peace of mind, to want some measure of monitoring to make sure the meds are being taken. Maybe that’s too fearful a response, but it doesn’t seem to me to have much to do with forgiveness, outside the family and friends of the victim.

I think one problem with full release is that anecdotes of other successes are meaningless. Each case is individual, and there isn’t much separating success from catastrophe. In a few months or a few years Mr. Li may decide he doesn’t need the meds any more, and then he has another episode and hurts or kills someone else. That would be very bad for that next victim, but even worse for others suffering from Mr. Li’s condition, as they could all end up institutionalized forever.

I have no desire to demonize Mr. Li or his condition. It is unfortunate for him that his condition can have such dire consequences to other people. I have high blood pressure and so I take my meds regularly; but if I don’t, the only person to suffer will be me.

179

Roderick, you should see the documentary, if you can find it (it may be on the CBC.ca website) about Sean Clifton. His turnaround and being embraced by the community is amazing.

Here is today’s CBC account of Li’s hearing. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/vince-li-freedoms-1.3968826

The tweets from the reporter are interesting and go to the points about continuing treatment, followup, etc.

I hear what you are saying about the possibility of Li re-offending but what guarantees are there for any citizen who might be healthy but could eventually fall victim to a mental illness?

Li is barred from any contact with McLeans family, but the mother is very vengeful and I am not certain she isn’t going to stop her quest for retribution. I have often thought that Li had as much if not more to fear from society than society has to fear from him.

Cheers,
A

180

Yeah, I don’t think it’s at all unreasonable to have Li supervised to make sure he takes his meds. If he doesn’t take them, we already know what he might do because he’s already done it once. It’s not just idle speculation.