Hotel of Heroes mafia

The Game Room
841

Ah, so we’re finally awake. I had a couple of points I was going to bring up, but they’re both moot now. Ah, well, I went to all that trouble of thinking, so I’ll say what I was going to say, anyway.

First of all, when I saw that Pleonast was Scum, my thought was “Ah, if Cookies has to choose toNight, then she’s pretty likely to choose Town, since we now look to have an advantage”. Of course, that’s mooted by her own admission that she didn’t choose until after we saw all three of those deaths. And Storyteller’s right; with three Town dead including a mason in one Night, it would be perfectly reasonable for Cookies to choose Scum.

Then, I was going to ask Red Skeezix about his post-dawn and post-dawn but before dawn post 793, where he asks Cookies if she killed Chip. At that time, we had two kills, but I don’t see any reason to ask Cookies about only one of them. Shouldn’t it have been just as plausible (at that time) to think that she had killed Wanderers and that Scum had killed Chip? Actually, I’m still a little curious about that, but it’s only an idle curiosity now, since Red is now confirmed.

Speaking of which: Yes, Red is confirmed, and doesn’t need anyone backing up his story, unless he’s counterclaimed (which I really don’t expect to happen). We know that Chip was a Mason, and Masons never show up alone. Therefore there is another Mason, and if Red weren’t it, then someone else would be, and would be able to counterclaim him. The lack of a counterclaim therefore confirms Red.

Also, Red, I can thinking that Mahaloth might want to replay that one, given that it pretty much never got played in the first place (basically, a bunch of Town just stood around scratching their butts and watching themselves lose), but did that game have any mechanism that would account for three deaths in one Night? Cookies has claimed one, of course, and presumably one was the Scum, but who killed the third person?

Quoth ushi:

I’m not sure why you would hold that against her. Yes, she killed Town, but he almost certainly had no way of knowing that he was Town before she killed him. You can question her judgment in using her kill at all at this time, and if she had killed someone who had already been confirmed, that would obviously have been bad, but what did she actually do wrong? Or is it just the fact that she admits it that bugs you? What should she have done, lied about it?

842

My comments come after >>>> above.

843

I feel like I’ve been picking on you all game, and then you go and say stuff like this and it reminds me why I keep picking on you.

Nothing has changed from yesterday about Ushi, except now you can’t quibble over the kill order between him and Pleo, right? Am I paraphrasing you correctly? That’s what you said up there in the quote?

Yesterday you thought Ushi was town, but his death would give us good information about the Oredigger thing.

So, once again, you’re happily voting for someone you’ve repeatedly said over and over again that you believe is town.

844

A couple of random thoughts:

Why MentalGuy? Why OneandOnlyWanderers? I don’t feel like going through all of their posts tonight 'cuz I’m tired, so I’ll do it tomorrow. I want to raise the question though… why do you think they were targeted?

Cookies, who I don’t trust in the least, should not be our lynch today. 1) If she joined the scum team, she likely brings no additional information or powers to their ranks. 2) Plus, her voting history won’t get us any closer to catching scum, because prior to today she wouldn’t know who her teammates were. 3) There’s the off chance she’s telling the truth. 4) She’s a known variable, and I have a better target.

Vote Wolverine.

I’ve been consistently the only person voting for this guy, and I don’t think his actions have gotten the recognition they deserve. Somebody, anybody, either agree or disagree with me about how incredibly scummy he’s been.

845

What should she have done? Nothing.

Why does it bug me? Because if we had lynched her, she would not have killed Town? That was one of my main points. Short of having a confirmed Scum target, it was foolish to not lynch not-Town and even more foolish to let not-Town take a “roll the dice” kill.

What is unclear or confusing about that? It was a stupid ass play, and it hurt us badly.

So A: it was stupid of Town to allow it to happen, and B: assuming she genuinely had Town interest at heart, it was stupid of her to take the Kill.

Let me make it clearer: If Town had the option on Day One to make 1 kill or 7, which would you choose? If you have less-than-perfect information, it makes sense to minimize the damage you might cause by acting on that partial information.

There couldn’t be 2 other masons that haven’t said anything? The other mason maybe hasn’t said anything at all yet?

You just say “unless he’s counterclaimed”. Therefore there is still a possibility.

So, he’s not confirmed yet, thank you very much, although I personally believe him.

A mislynch. Cookie kills Town. Scum kills Town. That’s 3. It was spelled out several times.

Granted, we avoided the first, but not for any reason beyond dumb luck (or poor play on Scum’s part for not coming back with a cover story).

If we had lynched cookies, it would have removed the possibilty of lynching Town. That is what I mean (and said a couple of times).

We ended up losing 3 anyway for some other reason, but that only means we were risking 4 deaths instead of 3, which hardly weakens the original argument.

The entire point is, they didn’t know they were voting for Scum. Just because you won the lottery doesn’t make you a mathematical genius.

And you want to call me an “armchair quarterback”? Physician, heal thyself.

I’ve said I’m Town, yet you’re set to lynch me.

The only thing (at this exact point) we now have is a weaker case against Cookies, which means all we have done is increased the uncertainty of any lynch.

Sorry I’m not the metagamer that some players are. What someone did in some other game, or the composition of teams from some other game from the same moderator or whatever are of zero interest to me.

Also, don’t use that >>> QUOTE shit, Some of your lines are prefixed and some aren’t, and frankly I don’t want your retardation clouding my words.

I thought there was a rule on that in general on this board?

How much experience do you have on the SMDB, again?

You know what? No, no I will not elaborate. You go back and read the posts where Cookie was saying how she would kill based on Town’s wishes. You go back and read the posts where it was discussed how useful it would be (or not be) for Town to tell her to attempt to Kill.

You do the reading and stop jumping to conclusions.

Or don’t, it’s up to you.

Yes. Already said he’s my backup choice to Cookies. As I said, I highly doubt we will be lynching Cookies, so I’ll probably end up voting Wolverine later.

846

Feel free to share your thoughts on what you think the consensus was for what my actions should have been last Night, ushi. Only a few people even bothered to weight in with anything, and fewer still agreed about what it should have been.

847

Then do nothing. Not sure why that is so hard to understand.

Anyway, it doesn’t matter, because…

====

On reflection, with Astral’s reasoning and my own cynicism that this Town team couldn’t lynch Scum with the Tidy Bowl Man soaking the rope in Powerful Scrubbing Bubbles I realize I’d just be wasting time and effort on Cookies.

Unvote Cookies
Vote Wolverine

848

I remember a couple of people (myself included) saying to not do anything.

849

And a couple of people thought I should have killed Ushi. But most people said nothing. Not that I should do nothing, but they offered no opinion. That is not consensus. I had offered to do the bidding of a consensus. None was reached. I acted on my own, and I was wrong.

As to Chronos’ question about why Red specifically asked me about Chip, I had been voting for Chip prior to switching to Pleonast. I’m assuming that had something to do with why he asked.

Wolverine’s play strikes me as inexperienced. Maliciousness has yet to be shown. He isn’t persuading anyone with his arguments, he’s just drawing attention to himself with them.

850

**Vote Count:

Ushimi(4): Idle, Thesearemypants, Wolverine, Meeko

Story(1): Cometothedarkside

Wolverine(2): Astral, Ushimi
**

851

As for why i asked cookies whether or not she had killed chip, i was trying to ascertain whether she had gotten a win con yet.

I feel like cookies has to be lynched today, but I also want to pursue other cases, as soon as I find them. I am puzzling over the kill choices from last night, neither one makes much sense from a scum perspective.
Astral, I guess i’m being thick, but could you update+restate (concisely) your case on wolverine?

Also, i disagree with both idle and pant’s assessment of the day 1 lynch regarding ushi. I find it equally likely that pleo would choose to make a defensive stance in a town on town lynch, so as to appear more townlike as to defend a fellow scum like that. Do you have anything else?

852

Quoth ushi:

So Town shouldn’t get any credit for lynching Scum, because hey, they didn’t know, but Cookies should get blame for killing Town, even though she didn’t know. And you’re confident that there’s no way that this group of players could possibly lynch Scum, despite the fact that we just did exactly that. I think you’re just trying to stir up confusion, now.

Vote ushi

Oh, and so as to not focus exclusively one one player, let’s look back at yesterDay, posts 760, 761, and 762, by storyteller and myself: In post 760, storyteller says that he can’t see any reason for Pleonast to withhold information. In post 761 (simulposted, before I saw post 760), I ask storyteller if he can think of any reason for Pleonast to withhold information. Then, in reply in post 762, storyteller says that he can think of hundreds of reasons. Gee, he sure thought of a lot of reasons in those four minutes, didn’t he?

Finally, with regards to Cookies, I think that the answer is still what I thought yesterDay: Hunt for other Scum, and if the game is still going when we think we’ve got all of them, kill Cookies then.

853

That’s entirely dishonest on your part. In 760, I am specifically saying that there is no reason for Pleonast to with-hold information if he is on his way out (ie, about to be lynched, about to die). In 762, I am (clearly) talking about reasons that a power role might choose to with-hold information in general. Circumstances change when a player is about to die - there is no good reason for a Town player to take pertinent information to the grave if it can be avoided.

This is an extremely dishonest attempt to manufacture an apparent inconsistency where none exists, and it makes me terribly suspicious of Chronos. This is a little sad, because I kind of agree, in principle at least, with this:

854

Wolverine repeatedly makes cases that do not benefit town.

First, he votes for Ushi despite concluding that Ushi is likely town, and his death would only give us good information if he was scum. This post has some excellent hedging - despite calling for Ushi’s death, Wolverine has left himself an out, adding that Ushi is “most likely innocent.”

He later concludes that Pleo looks guilty either way, but refuses to vote for him. I’d consider this good scum strategy: agree with the case on a fellow scum, but don’t add your vote to it. That way, if he flips scum, you can say you were “for it” but weren’t 100% and felt you had a better case on someone else. And if he ends up short, your buddy lives another day.

Instead, he repeated his asinine vote for Ushi, after repeating his belief that Ushi is most likely innocent and an inexperienced player. He then weaves some really tangled bullshit about giving free town passes to people depending on whether Ushi is town or not, making sure to repeat that if Ushi is town, it tells us nothing about any of the other voters.

He is the very last person to vote for Pleonast, with a little less than three hours to go. To be fair to him, he had unvoted Ushi the night before, but only adds that he “wants to hear from Pleo” before revoting. Very much playing it safe, very much not wanting to be the final nail in his teammate’s coffin, in my opinion.

Today’s vote is a doozy. As I’ve shown, he’s consistently claimed that he believes Ushi to be town. So, I guess it makes sense to vote for him again. He adds that “nothing has changed from yesterday,” a statement I would disagree with pretty heavily. We’ve got a few more bodies lying around, and a ton more facts to analyze, but he seems pretty content to continue voting for someone he believes to be town.

That’s my case on Wolverine. I’m gonna do Scuba_Ben and Thesearemyownpants are next. Last night I was going over in my head who’s pinged me the most throughout this game, and those three are my top targets. For now, I’m still very content with my vote on Wolverine.

855

In that case, your post 762 wasn’t really an answer to my question, since I specifically asked about reasons relevant to the then-current situation, where Pleonast was in fact due to be lynched.

856

**Vote Count:

Ushimi(5): Idle, Thesearemypants, Wolverine, Meeko, Chronos

Story(1): Cometothedarkside

Wolverine(2): Astral, Ushimi
**

857

This was posted by **Cookies **Yesterday when she was arguing why we should allow her to live through the Day:

This highlights my biggest complaint against Cookies. As she noted in the last paragraph, she didn’t need to kill last Night. And there she all but promises that she *won’t *kill if we let her live.

But she *did *kill. If she was ‘pro-Town’, I can see no reason why she would kill in that situation. I ended the Day voting for **Chip **myself, but I was nowhere near being sure enough of his guilt to unilaterally kill him if there was no compulsion for me to kill.

I don’t like the fact that she lied to us, telling us that she wouldn’t kill during the Night if we didn’t lynch her Yesterday. And frankly, I don’t believe her when she says she chose to side with Town, *after *seeing that three Townies were killed during the Night.

vote ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies

858

Unvote Story

He’s clarified his stance and there are other people doing more of what I was accusing him of trying to do.

Do you have anything to say about anyone other than me, Suburban? There is a field of other players, where the scum actually are.

I’d be willing to vote for Ushi again, but it is possible that I find that more compelling than I should.

859

First off,

vote Suburban Plankton

This is for the day 1 slip, and pleo catching it. It was a pretty esoteric catch to say the least. I went back and read his accusation of you, and it reeks of a bus attempt. The way i’m seeing it is that suburban made a slip up and his scum buddy caught it. It would be a pretty good bus because pleo had a fairly solid claim possibility given that he had investigative powers.

Secondly,

I’m not buying the pleo protecting ushi for the simple reason that he said he would vote for anyone who gave a self preservation vote. He could have simply sided with the case against oredigger in that situation without drawing attention. I don’t think he would have fenced himself in so easily, had ushi decided to self preserve.

This last sentence does not read to me like scum protecting scum to me.

Finally,

Cookies, did you send in your kill info before or after it was revealed that OAOW was dead? Were you told by the moderator that you had to choose your alignment before or after OAOW was revealed to be dead?

860

With that timeline, it suggests that the act of trying to make a kill could have been the trigger to choose sides, or that one of the dead had to die in order for me to be able to choose, or that Night 2 triggered the choice, or something else that there is no evidence of.