And no Israeli would show up for the reserve, right?
I am at a complete loss how anyone can look at the situation and pronounce both parties to be equally at fault.
Israel is just trying to exist. That’s all. It has been attacked many times. It occupied the territory the Palestinians are in because of the attacks launched from there. It occupies the Golan Heights because Syria used to use it to snipe at innocent Israelis working on Kibbutzum. It has tried to broker an offer with the Palestinians many, many times, only to be met with violence.
Two years ago, a desperate Ehud Barak offered Arafat far more than anyone thought Israel could ever offer. Bill Clinton said that the generosity of the offer “took his breath away”. Arafat didn’t accept it. In fact, he immediately broke off talks and launched the second intifada, rather than even try to negotiate a better deal. Many observers feel that what happened was that Barak called Arafat’s bluff - Arafat claimed that that’s what he wanted, so Barak gave it to him - and Arafat ran away. That was the proof the hardliners in Israel needed that the Palestinians didn’t just want their own state - they wanted all of Israel. They were helped along in that belief by the numerous speeches Arafat made in Arabic which called for exactly that.
Several weeks ago, Sharon asked for one thing - seven days of peace. He was then willing to re-enter negotiations. Arafat refused. Sharon then withdrew Israeli troops anyway. The result? The most deadly bombing yet, and an increase over all in the number of bombings.
Just what has Arafat conceded? What compromises has he been willing to make? Where is the evidence of good faith on Arafat’s part?
Is there anyone who doubts that if Arafat promised to halt the bombings that Israel would stop this military action?
I am not claiming there is equal fault. I no longer care who’s fault it is.
If I weren’t an athesist, I would blame God. Being who I am, I have to say humans are at fault. That’s as far as I can manage over the Middle East anymore. It’s as if I’ve entered a semi-permanent state of shock over the violence.
And I repeat, had I meant this to be a debate, I would have posted in a different forum.
So bite me!:rolleyes:
(feeling extra rude in the pits)
I’m at a complete loss how you can’t.
ARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH.
Fuck off the lot of you. It doesn’t matter who started it, it doesn’t matter who YOU think is right.
BOTH of the sides involved in this think they are right. They are both fighting for their lives as far as they are concerned. You can sit there and type whatever you want about how terrorists should not be dealt with or how the Israelis are killing innocents.
Terrorists do need to be talked to. You disagree? Well where you when Clinton was sitting with known IRA and Loyalist terrorists from Northern Ireland. I’m sure Bush even had a few to dinner on March 17th.
Both sides have a point. Israel is not innocent in this situation and anyone who says they are is an idiot IMO. The Palestinian leadership has created a situation where they have all but lost control to extremists (even more extreme than they are themselves). Israelites can’t go for a coffee with the fear of some nut with a bomb strapped to them running in and killing every one in the place. There are innocents getting killed from both sides. FUBAR
Both sides have gone over the edge if you ask me. What’s needed now is a major incident to rock both sides. I have a horrible feeling one is coming. A LOT of people are going to have to die horribly for this to stop. This situation is fucked up in the extreme. Like N. Ireland in the late 70/80’s both side just want the other out of their faces and they are willing to go to almost any lengths to achieve it.
My somewhat biased view is not going to change the situation and your somewhat bias view is not going to change it.
Only when both sides are tired of the slaughter will this end. It’s too personal on both sides for anything else to matter 
I agree, yojimbo, but how big does this catastrophe you foresee need to be to get their attention? To stop the hate? Won’t a tragedy just stiffen their resolve?
I’m back to the UN—or the US or NATO, as we still have SOME credibility over there—stomping its way in and forcing HONEST negotiations. The area is the Balkans in 1914; it won’t take much to ignite something nasty for the entire world. We have the means to prevent the catastrophe. We have the responsibility to do so.
So what are we waiting for?
The leaders may have their resolve stiffened but IMO when the people who are living with this shit get tired of it it will stop.
They may still hate and mistrust each other but hopefully they will learn that violence is not the way. Neither side can win this by using force. There’ll always be another settler, soldier, terrorist, freedom fighter whatever to continue the fight.
It would be great if this can be sorted out without a lot of bloodshed but I just don’t see it.
The international community and I’m talking everyone here has let both sides down IMO. They have signed agreements that they have not followed up on, made resolutions that they have not followed up on, given support and then pulled back when the going got tough etc
Somebody with balls to call it as it is. Stand up to Israel and Palestine. Lives will be lost. It’s easy for me to say this I hear you say. Ireland is neutral. It’s not your soldiers who’ll be facing the flak. You’d be wrong though. Ireland had soldiers in the Lebenon for the last 25years as part of the UN peace force there (they’ve just finish their assignment). We’ve lost soldiers there. As dropzone says this could get very dangerous for us all.
If this where a movie it would be easy just cast Harrison Ford and we’d all be grand. They’d be dancing on the streets of Bethlehem by X-Mas/ Ramadan/ Pesach instead of this
I’ve no solution but alas it looks like nobody else has either except for the usual blinkered shite I’m sick of reading.
Samstone, this is the pit we are expressing our anger at the indecent stupidity of both sides. Now answering what you said:
Barak may have offered the best anyone would thought Israel could ever offer. It seems it was not enough for the palestinians. I remember that this “great deal” didn’t mention the situation of Jerusalem between other things. To sum up It was the best deal Israel was able to offer, it wasn’t enough for the palestinian. Were they right to reject it? We don’t care they shouldn’t be blowing up people (including themselves), on the other hand the Israelis shouldn’t be using Gestapo like tactics (OUCH), in the last few days they shoot at peace protestors, journalists, they MURDERED an italian priest injured several nuns and are making terrible things to thousands of innocents palestinians. Again, we don’t care what happened in 1917, 1995, 2000 a.c, or yesterday. We care about what are both sides doing NOW to stop the violence… NOTHING… FUCK THEM ALL.
P.S. Monica lewinsky “took the breath away” of President Clinton, so I don’t think that is a good parameter for judging how great the deal was.
Blame the Jews. Ever since these immigrants moved into Palistine, they started to take over. First it was the refugees, then it was their relatives and now they dominate the country. Why don’t they go back to where they came from. Can’t they fuckin get the message. You’d think after Hebron in 1928 that that would have ended it.
** If the Israelis wanted peace, all they have to do is move out, and stop occupying Palistinian land. ** :rolleyes:
Hey…
Yeah you… Arab Guy and Israeli guy…
STOP FIGHTING WITH EACH OTHER!!!
PLAY NICE!!!
I MEAN IT!!!
DON’T MAKE ME COME DOWN THERE!!!
Funny… this works on my kids but then again… these aren’t my children who love and respect me.
Perhaps we should be directing our venom towards God/Allah (Gallah) because he/she is certainly one irresponsible parent for letting the kids fight like this.
What the fuck is Gallah doing while the kids are making bombs and shooting each other anyways? A good parent should pay attention to what the kids are up to.
I say it’s time for Gallah to come down from on high and put these kids across his/her knee… they are well beyond the point of getting a time out.
I’m sure that this might make them all stop as they would remember that Gallah has told them time and time again that killing each other is bad.
Love thy neighbour… it’s a simple rule. Why the fuck is it sooooo hard for people to uderstand?
Now I have the giggles… the preceding post by Lola was actually written by her doofus husband who forgot to check and see who was logged in.
Of course, anyone who knows us would know that she would never mispell “understand”.
Carry on…
The Palestinians are not going to stop the attacks until every single Jew in Israel is either dead or gone.
The Israelis have shown their willingness to coexist with the Palestinians peacefully.
If the Palestininans stopped the bombings, the Israelis would stop their attacks.
If the Israelis stopped their attacks, the bombings would continue unabated.
It is easy for me to choose sides here.
Bollocks.
If you believe this you’re being as close minded as the idiots that are running into coffee shops with bombs strapped to them or the guys who think you can force a community into submission.
This isn’t as nice and simple as you would like it painted. It’s not black and white.
I really wish everything was as simple as it is in your little world.
I appreciate the input from our Irish friends. They are familiar firsthand with the sort of bullshit that is going on in Israel today and they know it can be stopped, or greatly reduced, if people want it.
Please, then, explain to my little mind what it is that the Palestinians want. I’m very interested to find out.
The Israelis made an offer that apparently wasn’t good enough, pray tell, what WOULD be good enough?
I think you don’t have a fucking clue what they want. It isn’t like they’ve made any public announcement of what their desires are. Well, other than regaining the “occupied lands”, which could mean just about anything, up to and including the whole of Israel.
yojimbo, please offer up the slightest scrap of evidence that the Palestinians are willing to share even a single square mile of land with the Israelis. They had a chance for peace and decided that bombing grocery stores was preferable.
Cheesesteak, at this point, I’m beyond caring what either side wants. It isn’t fucking worth all this.
I want the UN or NATO or whoever to just go in there, and take over. Because it’s insane. It just cannot go on like this.
I am coming to the conclusion that the Palestinians are WAY smarter than I ever gave them credit for. They have swatted away olive branch after olive branch over the years. They were offered Israeli citizenship, SWAT! They were offered their own land, SWAT! They were offered further negotiations, even after Arafat turned his back on the Camp David offer, SWAT! They turn away option after option for peace and instead, bomb innocent people in grocery stores, restaurants, religious celebrations, what have you.
Even after all that, people don’t care who is right and who is wrong. They don’t care who wins, just that it ends. People don’t care which side is prolonging the death and destruction, they just want it all over. Let’s blame both sides, they both stink!
Fuck that! Until somebody comes in here and educates my ignorant ass about all the Palestinian peace offers I’ve obviously missed out on, I know exactly who is causing all of this suffering. The Israelis have tried peace but someone keeps blowing up stuff.
Jeez… and someone else keeps shooting children in the head with rubber bullets.