How 'bout we condemn the BOTH Arabs and Israelis!

The BBQ Pit
81

Ok, I shouldn’t have accused you of that.

Do the Palestinians have the same right?

Negotiate. Negotiate. Negotiate. Pursue peace through compromise. It might be painful, and each compromise might be morally repugnant to the participants, but it’s the only way to stop.

Here’s your over-simplistic world rearing its happy head again. Not all Palestinians are the same: Hezbollah is not the same as Hamas is not the same as Fatah is not the same as the PNA is not the same as innocent Palestinian civilians.

When did Israel halt its reprisals? Which reprisals?

This is this black/white thing again. Irrelevant. You can’t compare apples with oranges. Suicide bombing is unconscionable. So is wholesale oppression of a people. They’re different wrongs. Therefore there is no moral highground.

Rightfully so??? :rolleyes: You really are living in a different world: because some hard-line fanatics decide to kill innocent civilians and themselves, you’d endorse rolling tanks into people’s towns, shooting indiscriminately, cutting off their water and electricity, introducing internment? After the Oklahoma bombing, should forces have occupied Buffalo, NY?

Would you say the American Indians were legitimate in their initial defense of their lands? If hundreds of thousands of people took over, say, North Carolina, and shunted the occupants off the land tomorrow, how long would you say it was legitimate for the citizens of NC to fight to retain/regain the land? At what point are you legitimately allowed to fight to defend your land and the land of your ancestors? One year? Ten years? Twenty? Fifty?

I do not justify the suicide bombings, or indeed violence of any kind, but violent action is an inevitable result of oppression and occupation.

Unlike you, I have grown up in a country that for 30 years was under constant threat from terrorist action (England). We were not under threat from invasion by our neighbours in order to defend Northern Irish nationalists, either, so unilateral military action would have been even easier. Granted, the threat and the atrocities were never anything like as bad as the Israelis are suffering, but still it is totally clear that the thing that stopped IRA bombing in England was dialogue and compromise. Any military action made things worse.

GaWd, read the above paragraph and shut the fuck up.

82

There’s where you don’t get it and have NEVER gotten it. We are not “Palestine supporters.” Just as being against SOME of the policies of the Israeli government does not make us anti-Semitic, neither does it make us supporters of the actions of SOME of the Palestinians.

We are in this thread because there is blood on BOTH sets of hands. And on plenty of the hands of other countries and groups who have stuck their grubby paws into this. Hell, even IRA and Palestinian terrorists have trained together.

The USA propped up Israel in its darkest days because we WANT Israel to exist. However, there is a quid pro quo implicit in our support: we also want Israel to act like a proper nation. What is happening now has taken on the earmarks of a bloodfeud and the TWO sides are squabbling like the Hatfields and McCoys.

While my earlier use of “fascist” to describe the government of Israel was wrong, there are parallels in the ghettoization of the Palestinians and sending tanks against mobs armed with stones and small arms. The scene is chillingly familiar.

83

Umm…who mentioned anything at all about anti-semitism? If your support leans towards Palestin and away from Israel you appear to be supporting Palestine…maybe I’m being too simplistic again. Oh well, you get the point.

I DO get it, and HAVE gotten it for years. I’ve been waiting for this to happen since I was a child. I expected it many years ago. If not for peace-lovers like Netanyahu, Et al, this WOULD have happened years ago.

Unfortunately, we’ve passed the brink, and I think it best to play out. Or maybe you could rally all your friends and start a crusade. :rolleyes:

Sam

84

  1. In other threads you or one of your cohorts (I’ll search for the thread when the board isn’t so busy) linked my objections to Israeli policy to anti-Semitism.

  2. If “leaning toward Palestine” is anything short of getting on my knees and fellating Ariel Sharon, then I’m guilty. However, finding BOTH sides culpable in the current situation is not “leaning toward Palestine.”

  3. Yes, you are.

  4. No, I don’t “get” your point, at least as you mean it. I “get” that you are unwilling to see anything short of perfection in all the actions of the state of Israel. you aren’t going to get perfection in anything involving humans.

  5. Netanyahu a “peace lover?” Perhaps compared with that psycho Sharon, but not compared with, say Ghandi.

  6. Play it out to what end? The expulsion of all non-Jews from Israel? The deaths of all non-Jews in Israel? Please explain your goal.

  7. MY friends are better armed than YOUR friends. And all we have to do is withdraw our financial aid and Israel will fall like a house of cards.

85

Hey JJ!

You shut the fuck up. Israel has talked and talked and talked itself blue. It was time for action. All talking has done is get people killed. What else was there to do? Wait for another fucking Martyr-bomber to crash yet another Passover celebration? Another 200 or 300 more dead Israelis is no biggie, right? Fuck that.

I’ve been praying for peace for 18 months now. It’s done no good. We’ll see what comes of it after Israel pulls out and begins talks, and I’m sure a pullout will occur in the next week or two.

Sam

86

DZ, you have this bad habit of reading into everything someone says and coming up with your own ideas.

It was me that popped off in the other thread about anti-semitism. At the time, it seemed that a group of people suggesting the extermination of Israel was out of hate for them. Not just hate. It’s clear to me now that it’s just blind hate. I agree it was an improperly chosen word.

I don’t think Israel is perfect, nor it’s actions. I’m not exactly sure where you get that idea. I certainly think this invasion is just, however.

Nobody said you needed to blow the head of state, either.

Oh, and since the US has engaged in a very like-minded effort to “rid the world of terror”, I don’t think we’ll be changing sides or withdrawing support anytime soon.

The rest of your post, I won’t even address.

87

jjimm:Negotiate. Negotiate. Negotiate. Pursue peace through compromise. It might be painful, and each compromise might be morally repugnant to the participants, but it’s the only way to stop.

Exactly correct, the right thing to do is to stop killing each other long enough to talk things out and come to a peaceful resolution. The Israelis have asked for this, on multiple occasions, and have been met with more bombings. When have the Palestinians strived for the compromise you suggest?

Do the Palestinians have legitimate grievances? Sure. Was the Israeli offer perfect? No. The Palestinians have decided that this “war” is the only way to get what they want, the Israelis are willing to talk, the Palestinians want to kill.

88

Okay! As long as we have THAT clear! :wink:

89

(grumble grumble)

Now that we are deep into our USUAL fight and, as usual, GOING NOWHERE with it, in our usual loud and boring manner, how can we gracefully kill this thread? Fenris and I already used a sloppy joe recipe to kill one thread today. Dare we try for two?

90

Jesus DZ. Let’s just agree to disagree. We’ll never budge an inch on this.

91

I finish my contribution (!) to this thread with the words of a man who isn’t a great favourite of mine, but in this case I feel has finally Done The Right Thing:

GWB, for once I agree with you.

92

Works for me. And let’s add this to our list of Topics We Never Mention, like crazy uncles, what exactly we were doing in the 70s, and the precise circumstances surrounding the the ends of our most grisly love affairs.

93

You know, it’s not the Arabs or Israelis, it’s the damn Redheads you gotta watch out for!

94

Word.

95

Ya know, it was a Redhead Appreciation thread that first got me addicted to this place (Prominent Jewess Shayna flirted with me and I met Prominent Shiksa Scotticher there) so don’t start. Just don’t start. :wink:

96

The Palestinians send suicide bombers into crowded public places.

The Israelis have snipers shoot at disabled grandmothers as they exit local hospitals.

A pox on both of them. I don’t care who started it, the fact that they both continue it is repulsive enough.

97

(treading gingerly because, while I agree with most of what rjung says, I don’t want the endless accusations back and forth started again)

I missed that one. Do you have a cite?

98

A guy can’t even rant in peace anymore.

Why don’t you supporter’s for Arab or Israeli or Palestinian rights go somewhere else? It is your type of intransigence that is fueling the violence on both sides.

They will go on killing each other until they decide to stop, or until there is no one left to kill, no matter WHO is right, or what WE think about it.

The only solution I can see (and it’s one that WON’T happen) is a massive embargo of the whole region. A funckin’ ring of steel. Nothing comes out but people, and oil. Nothing goes in but UN inspected refugee aircraft. No food, no medicine, no weapons or ammunition. No communication with the rest of the world.

They can shoot themselves out of bullets and settle it with knives if they want. They can nuke themselves into parking lots. They can starve. Or they can cooperate and survive.

But real world politics make this completely impossible. I really don’t think there will be any serious movement until something happens that makes the WTC look small. Nukes or bio weapons, maybe.

99

Why would the Israelis target grandmothers!!! This is awful. And disabled grandmothers at that. And from a distance too. What cowards. I withdraw my support for Israel :rolleyes:

100

No. In 1967, Israel tried to expand beyond the borders given to them by the UN. It’s a hell of a lot more than “prescence”, it’s bulldozing Palestinian settlements so that Israeli settlers can have a home. Israel IS a legitimate country with a legitimate government but an ILLEGITIMATE occupation of Palestinian areas. To assume that the suicide bombers are just hateful and bigoted is VERY puny minded. Suicide bombing is generally an act of despair and all it does is play into Sharon’s hands and makes things even worse.

Perhaps at first, Israel was defending itself. But, now it’s nothing more than conquest and subjegation of the Palestinian people. Yes, indeed “chillingly” familiar…:frowning:

“I’m trying hard to understand both sides. Its getting harder and harder to understand either.”

Yup. The most visable people tend to be the maximists on both sides though. :frowning:

“A pox on both of them. I don’t care who started it, the fact that they both continue it is repulsive enough.”

nods The conflict has been going on for thousands of years.

In closing, I never thought I’d be agreeing with George W. Bush!