It doesn’t. And even if it did, “jaw jaw is still better than war war”, to paraphrase Churchill.
You paint with an awfully wide brush, Sofa. Would you similarly characterize the people of the United States by the platforms of the Republican or Democratic Party? I’m not sure that Israelis and Palestinians are as monolithic in political thinking as some people wish.
But, it is convenient to just divide those folks into two simplistic camps. And I’m a big fan of convenience. According to both “sides”, the other “side” are bloodthirsty, uncivilized, terrorist killers. I figure both sides are probably right. I think it is obvious at this point that neither side can be trusted to play nicely with the other.
Now that I think about it, my annexation plan might be simpler if, rather than confiscate arms, we airdrop them. Why not facilitate the current process? It sure would be easier to annex a depopulated wasteland.
Of course, corpses make pretty poor revenue emitters[1].
Sigh.
Back to plan A.
[1] Thanks to whomever originally posted that wonderful, wonderful euphemism.
Jaw-jaw, indeed. I’ll tell you what, why don’t you provide us with a copy of that amended charter, hmm? Where is it? Here’s a hint:
“Palestinian negotiator Hassan Asfour said despite the show of hands, this should not be considered a formal vote.” –Associated Press
While I realize that this purportedly official website could still be under construction three years after the fact, I consider it unlikely. Note also the date, six months after the charter was supposedly amended. Is the Palestinian Ministry of Information misinformed?
No. This is just one more example of Palestinian duplicity and disingenuous negotiation.
Sofa King, many people saw Article 2 of the constitution of the Irish Republic, viz: “Ireland is the whole island of Ireland”, as an aggressive intent towards the current government of those six counties, and a legitimization of Republicanist ideals. Peace talks were entered with all parties with the constitution unamended. After years of painful and detailed negotiations, and a lot of false starts, a referendum was held in the Republic that amended this part of the confirmation as part of the Good Friday peace agreement. Yesterday the IRA voluntarily put another tranche of weapons beyond use. Jaw jaw indeed.
Since you clearly don’t get the “how 'bout we condemn BOTH” bit of the OP, I’m extremely glad they’re sending Colin Powell over, not you.
Hey, when the Palestinians show an honest, genuine effort to move this peace process forward I’ll be the first to applaud them.
I haven’t yet seen it. Instead, I’ve seen them take every advantage offered on the road to peace and turn it into an instrument of war. Therefore, I conclude that the two sides are not worthy of equal condemnation, and I am very, very concerned that public opinion is swaying in that direction.
Perhaps fortunately for all of us, that is just my opinion. I fervently hope that I am not someday proven correct.
Yeah, well, you might feel differently if you just had your house bulldozed. I’m not really sure why we’re wasting the jet fuel to drag Colin Powell (kicking and screaming) down there, anyway.
I am with Sofa King on this one.
dave316 quote:
listen to DEV, how long has Israeli been at this, they invade - kill some people - leave - more suicide bombs - another invasion. Some countries are just not meant to do the war thing . America knows how to
Yes America know how to stick its great big fucking nose into successful military operations of the Israelis and stop them from ending this suicidal bullshit the fucking palestinians are doing every day. The arrogance of the United States flying U-2 missions over the ME durring the 67 war and the 73 war handing one package of pictures to the Israelis and the other to the Egyptians and Jordanians.:rolleyes:
All you pussyfoot pansies out there saying there is blood on both their hands just go back and fucking read what the Israelis said to the UN after the 67 and 73 wars. Fuck all they want to do is to live in peace but hell no you and your fucking scum bag flea ridden hate filled suicidal we cant control ourselves palestinian brothers will not let that happen. Shit there wasn’t even such a thing as a palestinian until 64 guess what you bastards you don’t exist. If you can’t get your shit together then I am afraid to tell you that you are fixing to find yourself on the fucking east side of the Jordan river.
I’m with Sofa boy on this one. It’s unfortunate that every single peace offering(especially the initial one to form a united Israel), has been shot down by Palestine.
I feel that public opinion is swaying towards the “suffering” of the Palestinians(including American Jews), and the Hatemongers are also beginning to pop up and make themselves known. Just look at the SDMB, in the last month there have been so many Anti-Israel/Anti-Middle east conflict threads that I’m amazed.
I hope that it is all over soon, and that the terrorist groups perpetrating the mayhem on the area(Hamas, Hezbollah, Et al) are wiped out, and things can go back to a pseudo-peaceful state. I also hope that the US eventually decides to mind it’s own fucking business.
Sam
Just because the Palestinians are genocidal boneheaded morons (which they are) doesn’t mean I have to tolerate the genocidal boneheaded moronic behavior (which they are) of the Israelis, either.
Do not confuse “condemnation of one side” with “support for the other side.” Despite what George W. Bush may think, life does not boil down to “you’re either with us or against us.”
I have tried to stay out of this but today’s events have overcome my reticence.
First, we have to recognize that the “drive the Jews into the sea” types on one side and the “God gave us this land” types on the other are irrational, hate mongering demagogues feeding on desperate and fearful people. Their arguments and hysteria are not worthy of serious consideration.
Second, until Israel pulls out of the West Bank and Gaza completely, including the settlements, the Palestinians will not quit bombing because bombing is the only means of resistance they can think of. By the same token, until the Palestinians accept Israeli occupation the Israelis will continue to occupy the West Bank and Gaza. From what I know the Golan Heights are not an issue with the Palestinians, that is Syria’s issue. The occupation of the Palestinian territories is the central issue.
Third the PLO and the various other Palestinian organizations and the present Israeli government or so tied to the radical “push the Jews/ God gave us” radicals that neither side has a way out of this short of the extermination of the other side. Since Israel has managed to imprison Arafat (for all practical purposes) and has destroyed any ability the Palestinian Authority might have had to control the situation if they wanted the onus to bring things under control is on Israel.
Fourth, and this is what scares the hell out of me, with Sharon’s pretty flagrant rejection of the US request to pull out of the West Bank, I am starting to think that Israel is intent on a once and for all confrontation with not just the Palestinians but with the rest of the Arab States. If this thing is not brought under control in the next 48 hours or so, I fully expect a blood bath and, with a few miscalculations, a situation in which the US will be forced to decide whether to intervene in a wider war which pits Israel against Jordan, Syria, Egypt and maybe Saudi Arabia. The Arab countries will not stand by and watch Israel exterminate the Palestinians. If Israel continues on this course there will be no moderate Islamic States.
If all this was an attempt by the radical Palestinians to force Israel into an unacceptable response to provocation they are close to success. Clearly there has been plenty of provocation by the Palestinian radicals, but the Israeli occupation has also been a serious provocation. There is no good reason that the legitimate aspirations of both sides cannot be realized, but that is going to require the hotheads on both sides to back off. That has not happened yet and I don’t expect it to happen without foreign, meaning US, intervention. It seem to me that we are damn’d if we do and damn’d if we don’t.
That’s it. I’m buying an electric car and installing a nuclear power plant in my house.
The problem with thinking that the Arab nations will come to the ‘rescue’ of the Palestinians is that Israel can kick all their asses quite handily, and they all know it. Israel has some of the most modern, best military equipment in the world. Their armed forces are considered to be among the best in the world. The Arab nations might outnumber them in men and tanks, but that’s not much use when Israel is killing 20 or 30 tanks, airplanes, and people for every one of its own that it loses.
Another reason the Arab states won’t attack is because they really don’t care about the Palestinians, other than that the Palestinian/Israeli situations acts as a conventient scapegoat for these countries to deflect criticism of their own despotic policies.
Where were the Arab nations when Kuwait ethnically cleansed their nation of Palestinians? Where were the Arab offers of territory or a homeland, or even just citizenship for Palestinians?
After WWII, there were millions and millions of refugees all through Europe. Yet by 1950 the refugee problem was essentially over. Why? Because other countries opened their borders to the refugees, many were welcomed back home, etc. The Palestinians are still sitting in refugee camps after 50 years in part because the nations surrounding Israel closed their own borders to their brothers. And why? Because it suited their purposes to have all of those people sitting on that particular piece of real estate.
And if the Palestinians just want a homeland and an Israeli pullout to the 1967 borders, then why did they choose to fight in 1948 when they were OFFERED that? Why did they participate in multiple attacks against Israel before 1967?
Like Sofa King, I am astonished at how many people cannot seem to see the fundamental difference between Israel and Palestine. The simplistic thinking behind statements like “They are both killing people. We should just knock their heads together” is simply an abrogation of morality. The difference is that if Every weapon vanished out of the Palestinian zone tomorrow, Israel would withdraw and allow them to live in peace. If every weapon vanished out of Israel tomorrow, the country would be destroyed in about two days.
There is a fundamental difference between defensive war and agressive war, no matter how ‘justified’ the agressors think they are. After all, you can find valid grievances among pretty all the axis powers in WWII. Reparations, boycotts, etc. They all felt like they were being mistreated. Did that make them any more correct for launching wars of conquest? Should someone have just knocked together the heads of Churchill and Hitler because they were both behaving like little boys? After all, both dropped bombs and killed innocent people, and war is bad, right?
I’m shocked, digussed and apalled by all who have been badmouthing the fencesitters.
People who wave off the massive deaths, and clear oppression of the Palestinians by the simple rtheric that “they’re terrorists, they desreve it” make me sick!
It’s hard not to think these people are not racist, or bigots. However, when they attack the fact that others can relate to any death on either side as unnessary… It’s kinda funny.
Please get help. This war needs no more hawks.
I’m not quite sure that’s a demonstrably accurate characterization of the situation. Sure, if the Palestinians had no arms, Isreel might withdraw. But they’d probably also ramp up the settlements and ratchet down water rights.
And I’m not so sure that the surrounding countries are suicidal enough to sponsor an invasion, even on a utterly undefended Israel. Palestinians have no hope of rescue by Arab states in the current political climate.
Now, if nations stop all aid to both sides, you see how quickly they’ll sort it out.
The thing is, most Israelis WANT Palestinians to have their own state. The problem they have is that these ‘progressive’ Arabs surrounding them keep attacking, and allowing a state in the occupied territories means that it will be very, very hard for Israel to defend itself. Israel is only 9 miles wide from the end of the occupied territories to the Mediterranean. Artillery in the occupied territories could hit 90% of Israel’s population.
The Palestinians and their Arab brothers have made this particular bed all on their own. The Golan Heights are occupied by Israel because Syria kept shooting innocent people from it, then used it to mass a surprise invasion force. The occupied territories are occupied because Arab nations have used it to launch attacks at Israel.
Israel did not start out wanting to occupy that territory - they had plenty of land of their own. Israelis simply wanted to live in peace. They have not been allowed to do so. They have been under constant threat of attack since the day that little nation was formed. Several of the world’s largest militaries sit right off of Israel’s border, and they are sworn enemies.
Here’s an analogy: Remember when raiders from Mexico attacked the U.S. (Pancho Villa comes to mind)? The U.S. attacked them and followed them back into Mexico and fought them there. Now imagine today if that situation was still continuing. Imagine that there was a high plateau that was part of Mexico, and it loomed down over a population area in the U.S. And Mexicans kept shooting Americans from it, and once in a while shelled a town or two. Then one day a wave of tanks comes over the ridgeline, and the U.S. pushes it back, then occupies the high ground to prevent it from happening again. Would the U.S. be wrong for doing so, or should it just leave all the citizens in the shadow of that area to fend for themselves? That’s essentially what happened in the Golan Heights.
Now imagine that a large circle was cut out of the heart of the U.S., with U.S. cities all around it. The Mexicans that are there were supposed to form their own country, and agreed to protect the borders. But instead, they attacked America, claiming that they wanted the whole country. Artillery from the area shells cities. Terrorists from the area move into the neighboring towns and kill people. The U.S. tries to negotiate for 50 years, but the violence just keeps getting worse. The government of Mexico uses the fact that America doesn’t control the border very well to launch an invasion of the United States, which is pushed back. More terror resumes. The leaders of the people there give constant speeches calling for the destruction of the United States. Children are taught in school that the entirety of North America belongs to Mexico. In the meantime, the government of Mexico itself continues making threats about destroying the U.S.
Just what would the U.S. do? And if, after a particular bloody series of attacks, they decided to sweep into the area to destroy terrorist cells and facilities, would they be wrong for doing so?
And how would you feel if during their sweep they found tons of munitions, explosives factories, training materials for suicide bombers, Anti-tank weapons, you name it? After going halfway through the area and finding all that, should they just pull back out and leave the other half of the unsearched areas alone? Knowing that there are almost certainly more facilities just like that that are making weapons to kill Americans?
I find it especially strange that Americans would have this attitude towards Israel right now. After 9/11, the United States brought down a GOVERNMENT in Afghanistan. It killed thousands of people. There is now a military force there doing exactly what Israel is doing - search and destroy missions to root out terrorists and kill or capture them. And the U.S. is exactly right for doing so.
So how come Israel, which is under much greater threat for its existance, and which has had the equivalent of a 9/11 attack in terms of percentage of population killed almost every week, is not allowed to protect itself in the same way?
Let’s see, if it was the U.S. in Israel’s position, it would declare the Palestinian Authority a terrorist organization, invade, destroy it, exile or kill Arafat, and set up its own government sympathetic to America. Then it would follow the trail of money and weapons back to other countries in the region, and pre-emptively attack them. Israel has been restrained compared to wha the U.S. would do.
Is Israel supposed to be Mexico or the US in this analogy? because, you could argue for both options.
Sam, do I note some inconsistency in your arguments? earlier you have said:
(My emphasis) and then followed it up with:
Is your postulate that Israel could only “kick their asses quite handily” with the ‘buffer zones’ in place? Because that, to me, seems quite a tenuous justification for occupation. Furthermore:
That should be in the past tense: ‘kept’ attacking. I don’t believe there’s been a sovereign incursion into Israeli territory since the Yom Kippur war in 1973.
Does this include Jerusalem? Because declaring Jerusalem the nation’s capital seems an unusual act for an unwilling occupation of a ‘buffer zone’.
Fair enough, but not all of us are Americans.
Furthermore, your Mexico analogy is not particularly apt, since it misses out the few dozen years from the Balfour declaration to
One could say: imagine that the UN decided that Florida and the surrounding areas was to become a Cuban homeland (since there are a lot of Cubans already there) against the wishes of the non-Cuban population and the wider United States. The UN partitions Florida into US and Cuban-controlled areas. Non-Cuban residents of Florida aren’t too pleased.
Take the analogy from there, Sam.
Please insert “1948.” after the word “to” in the preterpenultimate paragraph above. :mad:
I think I can walk with that analogy.
It’s 1948. Non-Cuban residents of Florida aren’t too pleased at the roughly equal division of Florida along settlement lines. Rather than abide by the terms of the agreement, which was created in part because the Floridians repeatedly acted irresponsibly, the Floridians enlist Georgia and Alabama to invade with the objective of pushing the Cubans out of Florida, except there isn’t a Cuba to which the Cubans can return. The Cubans win.
The Floridians are largely dispersed, but the rest of the United States refuses to allow their fellow Americans citizenship. Instead, they are kept as refugees and used as pawns in the greater international game to have the Cubans removed from Florida.
Georgia and Alabama begin planning another invasion, but the Cubans get wind of it and preemptively strike. They take over Western Florida, Mobile and the southern third of Georgia, and begrudgingly negotiate some of that territory back in return for guarantees of security. They are false guarantees, created only to buy time for Georgia and Alabama to recover their losses and invade again.
In the meantime, the Floridians begin a guerrilla war along the borders. When Cuban Florida sends Olympians to Munich, Floridian terrorists murder them.
Georgia and Alabama strike again, this time achieving suprise and penetrating deeply into the peninsula. The Cubans pull a rabbit out of their hat and once again defeat the invaders. In the wake of this defeat, Georgia negotiates a separate peace with the Cubans and officially step away from the conflict. Alabama, however, continues to insist upon the return of a largely uninhabited region which is strategically important should Alabama ever plan to invade Florida again.
Then, the Floridians, who have shown no national identity to this point, create a Communist revolutionary platform which a) claims all of the territory of Florida; b) calls for the unification of an apathetic United States behind their unrealistic goal; and c) promises in writing to use any territory reclaimed as a base from which to launch further attacks on Cuban Florida. The Cubans respond by building settlements in the territory they have occupied, turning the hostile territory of their sworn enemy into their own.
The non-Cuban leader, Jeb Bush, negotiates with the Cubans for more territory in return for less violence. His statements in Spanish are conciliatory, but in English he repeatedly compares his agreements to those the Americans made with the Indian tribes, which were subsequently ignored when convenient. In addition to running the Republican Party in Occupied Florida, Bush also secretly founds the Young Americans for Freedom, which recruits suicide bombers and snipers to attack the Cubans.
In violation of his own governing document, Bush unilaterally declares the clauses of his constitution which call for the destruction of Cuban Florida to be null and void. Cuban Florida offers to rearm the Floridians so they may police themselves, and virtually all the land originally controlled by the Floridians back, with the exception of Disney World. Bush refuses. After further negotiation, the Floridians all give a show of hands to indicate they no longer advocate the destruction of the Cubans, but the vote is not recorded and the governing documents are not changed. Floridian schoolchildren are still taught that the Cubans must be expelled from Florida.
Then one day the Cuban leader, Castro, a man who once fought the Floridians in their own terrorist fashion and bested them at that game, too, visits Disney World. The Floridians declare a holy war against the Cubans. Bush’s own Young Americans for Freedom use the weaponry provided to the Republican Party for policing purposes to attack and kill Cuban soldiers. They hide amongst their own unarmed people to engage in these attacks. The Cubans invade Floridian territory in order to destroy the Young Americans for Freedom and to root out and confiscate their arms caches. Governor Bush is holed up inside his mansion in Tallahassee, where, once cornered, he claims he wants to be a martyr for the Floridian cause. Some see it as a self-protective gesture.
The Floridians call these acts by the Cubans an outrage, and rather than negotiate or follow the terms of the dozens of agreements to act peaceably that they have already made, they instead redouble their terrorist efforts, in direct contrvention of those agreements. At the same time, they widely publicize the plight of their people in order to swing world public opinion, a plight wholly created by themselves because they have no real concept of compromise and no intent to deal honestly with the Cubans.
How’s that for an analogy?
Awesome. I may not agree with some of the sentiments, but that’s a pretty damn amazing analogy. I love the thought of Castro visiting Disney World to the annoyance of Jeb. 
Kinda illustrates the futility of it all.