How 'bout we condemn the BOTH Arabs and Israelis!

So, when was the last time Israel was attacked by an Arab state, like 1973?

Artillary in Israel’s territory can hit 100% of the occupied territories. Is this going somewhere? Ahh, on to a bad analogy. One that does not include, say, all the tax credits and grants given to Americans to settle Mexican territory. And oh so many other minor details that piss the Mexicans off.

Poor little Israel, it’s existance is threatened by an array of those evil Arab armies (“some of the largest in the world!”) I’m sure all those F-15’s, tanks (perhaps best in the world) and atom bombs will be no match for the Arab hoardes.

Face it: there is no threat to Israel’s existance. They kick ass, and take names. They could fight their way to Tehran, Jeddah or Cairo if they had to. At the same time. This is not 1948, 1967, or 1973.

When you are a client state of the US, you have to be better behaved than that. But hey, massive retaliation may be a good idea. It’s obvious that the Rabinesque peace attempts and Sharon’s peicemeal military operations aren’t working. But the Israeli’s like American dosh too much and would never give us the finger. Yet.

You don’t consider daily bombings in public places attacks? On holy days, on religious holidays?

**

Yes, Israel kicks ass and takes names. Unfortunately, public opinion and our government, the UN and the EU won’t allow them to do what must be done.

**

That’s a crock of shit if I ever heard one.

What’s good for the goose(the US) should be good for the gander(Israel) as well. We did it to Afghanistan, and now Israel has a goal to get it done in Palestine. The US killed and maimed thousands of innocents to get their objective completed, and now
The PreZdent wants Israel to bitch out midway through theirs? Fuck that.

Oh, and fuck you for playing moral “holier than thou” with this situation. Israel is just as good or bad as the US is. Just as guilty, just as oppressing, almost as powerful.

Sa,

Sure, they are attacks, but last I checked, Hamas is not an Arab state.

What is a crock of shit? The fact that the Israelis need US influence and treasure to maintain their state? Rabin’s peace plan didn’t work? Sharon’s policy (whatever it is) isn’t working? I mean, you seem to be agreeing with the first item in your previous paragraph.

This is an argument to condemn the PA and not the Israelis in exactly what way? .

There was a radio news report about two weeks ago. According to said report, an Israeli newspaper survey shows that 40% of Israeli citizens support the (formerly radical) idea of forcibly evicting the Palestinians from the West Bank.

So assuming I didn’t misremember the news, perhaps your earlier claim should read, “most Israelis WANT Palestinians to have their own state … far away from Israel.”

(And I’m curious if any of the pro-Israel, anti-Palestinian posters would care to address the sniper attack on the disabled Palestinian grandmother which I noted earlier in this thread. That’s as reprehensible as a suicide bomber, n’est pas?)

Reprehensible? Yes.

As reprehensible as suicide bombings of nightclubs, pizzerias and buses. No.

But it might haven been if grandma sniping was as common as suicide bombing.

I’ll play along, rjung, (although I believe you’re a such skilled debater that you could write the response yourself.)

If an Israeli sniper
– intentionally shot this person (i.e., it wasn’t just a stray bullet),
– knowing that she was a civilian,
– for the purpose of terrorizing the populace,

then that was just as reprehensible as a suicide bomber.

Assuming the story is true (and it was widely reported), I tend to believe the first condition, although I haven’t seen it confirmed.

The second condition seems unlikely. Ten Israeli soldiers were killed in battle yesterday, because they were taking pains NOT to kill innocent civilians. They could have attacked with long-range artillary or even bombs (as the US did in Afghanistan), which would have involved no risk. However, they chose to go house to house in order to avoid killing innocent Palestinian civilians, and paid the price.

My third condition seems out of the question. If Israel ever set out to terrorize the Palestinians, they have all kinds of bombs and missiles to do so wholesale.

So, rjung, what evidence or cites do you have as to the intent of the sniper and the reason for the shooting?

And Hamas and other terrorist groups are sanc by the PLO and Arafat. Therefore, they’re acting with the consent of their government.
**

The crock of shit is that you and several other posters seem to think the Israel should be held to higher standards than the US government is. That they should have to hold back their military operations because the US gov’t or other governing boards in the world(UN, EU, Etc), or public opinion of the situation. That, is a crock of shit.

Unfortunately, you don’t even see the paralells between the actions of the US in the last 6 months since 9/11 in Afghanistan and what Israel is doing now. Step back a minute, take a look. Same goal, same actions. Wipe out terrorism. Disband Terror organizations. Eliminate hostile terror-sanctioning government. Restore peace.

As far as a sniper attack reported by the Palestinian news source…I don’t buy it. There’s been so much propaganda slinging from both sides in the last 18 months I don’t buy more than half of it. I highly doubt grandma was sniper-attacked.

If She was, then it was certainly disgusting. Reprehensible even. Both sides have done at least the same amount of heinousness, and the media plays up certain points ad nauseum.

*- Should read “Sanctioned”

Personally, and I know that my two cents aren’t worth much in this argument, I’d like to see Bush stand in and say something to the effect of, “Israel, Palestine. Wait for the bell and come out fighting. Fight till it is finished, and don’t fuck around. Fight it out, fight it out, finish it. you have a year, or I’ll judge in favor of the rest of the fucking workd and waste you all. Everyone else, back the fuck off, or I’ll disqualify your team, if you know what I mean.”

i got a cite

http://www.harpers.org/online/gaza_diary/?pg=1

A Gaza Diary
By Chris Hedges

Sunday afternoon, June 17, the dunes

sit in the shade of a palm-roofed hut on the edge of the dunes, momentarily defeated by the heat, the grit, the jostling crowds, the stench of the open sewers and rotting garbage. A friend of Azmi’s brings me, on a tray, a cold glass of tart, red carcade juice.

Barefoot boys, clutching kites made out of scraps of paper and ragged soccer balls, squat a few feet away under scrub trees. Men in flowing white or gray galabias—homespun robes—smoke cigarettes in the shade of slim eaves. Two emaciated donkeys, their ribs protruding, are tethered to wooden carts with rubber wheels.

It is still. The camp waits, as if holding its breath. And then, out of the dry furnace air, a disembodied voice crackles over a loudspeaker.

“Come on, dogs,” the voice booms in Arabic. “Where are all the dogs of Khan Younis? Come! Come!”

I stand up. I walk outside the hut. The invective continues to spew: “Son of a bitch!” “Son of a whore!” “Your mother’s cunt!”

The boys dart in small packs up the sloping dunes to the electric fence that separates the camp from the Jewish settlement. They lob rocks toward two armored jeeps parked on top of the dune and mounted with loudspeakers. Three ambulances line the road below the dunes in anticipation of what is to come.

A percussion grenade explodes. The boys, most no more than ten or eleven years old, scatter, running clumsily across the heavy sand. They descend out of sight behind a sandbank in front of me. There are no sounds of gunfire. The soldiers shoot with silencers. The bullets from the M-16 rifles tumble end over end through the children’s slight bodies. Later, in the hospital, I will see the destruction: the stomachs ripped out, the gaping holes in limbs and torsos.

Yesterday at this spot the Israelis shot eight young men, six of whom were under the age of eighteen. One was twelve. This afternoon they kill an eleven-year-old boy, Ali Murad, and seriously wound four more, three of whom are under eighteen. Children have been shot in other conflicts I have covered—death squads gunned them down in El Salvador and Guatemala, mothers with infants were lined up and massacred in Algeria, and Serb snipers put children in their sights and watched them crumple onto the pavement in Sarajevo—but I have never before watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport.

We approach a Palestinian police post behind a sand hill. The police, in green uniforms, are making tea. They say that they have given up on trying to hold the children back.

“When we tell the boys not to go to the dunes they taunt us as collaborators,” Lt. Ayman Ghanm says. “When we approach the fence with our weapons to try and clear the area the Israelis fire on us. We just sit here now and wait for the war.”

Aren’t there any others out there who’d like to see Islamics (we know they have some fundy problems that won’t be resolved any time soon), Catholics (well, they’ve another sack of “issues” that are sticking like wet paint), and Baptists (I KNOW they’re up to something) shut down? Pick any religion, and the one thing they all have in common is a “GOOFY” gene. It’s a shame the riders of this little blue marble are so gullible as to believe the religi-babblers of today and the last few centurys.

(Don’t even get me started on Lutherans and Episcopalians; they like cheap beer… Oh, wait a minute, so do I…)

I found a couple cites about that too.

http://honestreporting.com/Critiques/2001/81_hedges2.asp

Admittedly these cites have evident pro-Israeli bias, but they do, IMO, point out several inaccuracies in Hedges’ account.

Damn, forgot the second link.

Here it is.

Hey Ellis, is that Pro-Israeli bias? or, as your first link says, is it just “honest reporting”?

HonestReporting.com is just that, honesty in reporting.

Sam

Just covering my bases. And I was trying to simply say: Here’s a counter to the Hedges piece, do with it what you will.

And don’t forget, your definition of “honest reporting” might be different from somebody else’s, regardless of the actual facts.

Or something like that.

Whatever Michael, I was just throwing that out there.

As was I.

I didn’t think Palestine was a state, either.

Sure, there are certain parallels. But like many analogies, it fails in meaningful ways that turn the analogy on its head. First, the US was not occupying and never has occupied Afghanistan. We have never bulldozed Afghan houses. We never closed Afghanistan’s borders. We were not colonizing Afghanistan. We did not capture Kabul and declare it capital of our nation. We did not limit Afghans’ access to water.

So, we agree, then?

Now, I’m embarassed this is devolving into a meaningful discussion. Can we please get it back on track?

rjung Quote:

(And I’m curious if any of the pro-Israel, anti-Palestinian posters would care to address the sniper attack on the disabled Palestinian grandmother which I noted earlier in this thread.

I’ll address this:

If her damn uterus would have fallen out after she birthed her 26th terrorist like it was supposed to we wouldn’t have had to shoot the old hag.

Hows that for addressing an issue and getting this serious debate back on track to pit standards?
WOOOHOOO

Do I win some kinda prize for most digusting post or what?:smiley:

Your density in this matter has assured that ti will get back on track.

Sam