How can I convince a friend that we're not living in the 1950s?

In My Humble Opinion
61

I disagree - sure, his wife doesn’t work 60 hours a week out of the house, but as noted earlier, dealing with little kids constantly is hard work, especially if you’re doing it on your own most of the time. Not only are little kids notoriously whiny, which is really grating, they’re also messy and destructive and keeping a house reasonably clean or at least free of obstructions you might trip over is not at all easy. Plus, there are some mind-numblingly redundant, boring tasks involved that you have to do over and over and over - putting on clothes, shoes, diapers, trying to understand the garbled sentences, helping them communicate, repeating yourself over and over and over to provide clear instruction and teach them what certain things mean, picking up toys (and instructing your toddler to pick up toys) that you’ve already picked up five times before. Then there’s cooking all the meals and cleanup after all the meals and other household maintenance.

I don’t think it’s at all unreasonable if she’s in the process of cooking dinner with a toddler clinging to her leg (to whom she’s probably responding by getting him juice, talking to him, giving him a snack, etc.) to expect her husband to get up long enough to get himself a book.

That said, it’s also her responsibility to tell him if she’s too busy. And she should do so in a way that’s calm and reasonable, not just say yes until she gets asked one too many times and explodes. There’s a world of difference between, “I’ve got my hands full - can you do that?” and “Goddamn it! Can’t you do anything for yourself?”

It also makes sense that she should do more of the housework and childcare since she’s physically present more; however, I’d say if she’s as busy as it sounds like she is, they’re equally deserving of a break and maybe could benefit a lot from some improved communication.

62

I work 55 to 60 hours a week. That doesn’t give me the right to act like an ass.

Back to the OP, I have never been able to help anyone with relationship problems. Even when the ask for help, they generally don’t listen. The best that you can do is be a shoulder to cry on.

63

No, he has a valid point. While some men used to get that 6-12pm downtime with a pipe and a beer in hand, the reality is that 99% of situations these days are not like that. So in reality, she really was making up a scenario. He’s making a point that the scenario he made up is just as feasible as the scenario she made up. He was a little inflammitory about it, but that’s the point he made.

64

We don’t have enough info here.

I don’t know if the kids are already in school.

I don’t know if her “part time” job is stuffing envelopes for 2 hours a day at home, or a six hour shift 5 days a week.

What I do know is that it is possible for some women to keep a neat house, do the banking and mailing and grocery shopping, meet with the contractors, and cook several days a week while he’s working.

And that there are some women in the same situation who are DONE when that guy comes through the door. The kids are his; the cooking is his. Putting them to bed is his.

Keeping a house is a huge chore. It’s not 60 hours a week, though. And, even if Mom can’t smoke a joint, or go running for an hour, you can’t count every second spent with your kids at home as “working”, either.

It’s not guys that me that ruin this myth, though. It’s the moms who actually do it. Yeah, I’d think that it was impossible if every woman was as stressed out as “Wife A” across the street. But, when “Wife B” – with the same house, and the same number of kids – is getting her shit done. . .well, I’m cutting “Husband A” a bit of a break when “Wife A” goes into hysterics over a question he didn’t really think through before he asked it.

65

Well, as **Dangerosa ** mentioned, we know that the OP, who is very good friends with them, feels that the problem is primarily with the husband.

Well of course it is. It’s possible for me to do all those things *while * working full time and *without * a tag-team partner. That said, sometimes things get crazy and the vacuuming gets postponed. And if anyone gave me any shit about that, he’d be eating rug fuzz.

I’m sure that’s true. I’m equally sure that it’s not a greater percentage of women than the percentage of men who feel that once they leave work, they are DONE.

Shrug Depends on the house. And the kids. And, for that matter, the job. I’ve had some jobs that were way less stressful than trying to keep a house with small children in it running smoothly and looking good. 60 hours is a long time, and I sympathize with anyone who has to work those hours, but it doesn’t necessarily follow that they were working hard.

Except that nothing in the OP indicates that we’re dealing with a “Husband and Wife A”.

Trunk, I apologize for my outburst earlier. I had skimmed too much, and didn’t realize the juxtaposition with **Ludy’s ** post.

66

True, but being an ass is far more understandable. I worked 60 hours a week, plus another 12 hours commuting in a high stress job once, and I hear I was not very nice. I solved it by quitting for a job with fewer hours, less stress, a shorter commute and more money, but that isn’t possible for everyone. I definitely remember being unhappy about having to do anything else except sleep, but I did stuff anyhow. And for us money wasn’t an issue, so I could see how it being an issue would lead to more stress.

I was about to suggest the guy vacuum if he didn’t like how clean the floors were until I saw the hours he worked. I think at this point all he can do is to reduce his expectations. The world is not going to end if there is some dust on the bed, or if the kids don’t have baths until after dinner. The '50s husbands never worked 12 hour days, and so had tons of time for the kids. I think the problem is the mismatch between a dream life and a real life, plus no doubt a lack of sleep and downtime.

67

The thing is, it seems far more exhausting to have to be more or less busy with things from the time you get up till the time you go to bed, even if there are periods of slack mixed in, than it is to put in a ten or twelve hour day and then be free till the next day…and it seems like in this woman’s case, she often isn’t free even after going to bed. :stuck_out_tongue:

All in all - and given what we know of the situation at this point - I think she’s got the worst end of things, and that if he truly loves her and wants to do the right thing, he’ll strive to try to make things 50/50 to whatever degree he can.

68

I think it depends a lot on the job and the kids. Well behaved kids of that age might well amuse themselves, and give a break. Brats who are going “mommy, mommy” all the time won’t. A job that is kind of mindless may be more relaxing than a job where you are on the run and people are bugging you every second.

None of this excuses him from asking her to get a book for the kids while he is sitting and she is cooking. But if there is too much shit on deck you can’t just move it from pile to pile. You need to get rid of some. He can start by reducing his expectations, and then continue by getting a job where he will be more sane.

69

The kids are 2 and 4, respectively. A very demanding age, and the 4 year old is a smart and likeable kid who unfortunately leans towards “Mummy, Mummy!” or “Daddy, Daddy!” a lot, and has trouble understanding that when adults are talking about Important Grown-Up Things he needs to STFU unless he’s got something important to say that doesn’t involve The Wiggles or Disney movie characters.

The 2 year old is surprisingly well behaved, though.

Exactly. I was on the phone to him last night and he admitted he doesn’t have a current resume (He’s been in his current job for something like 6 or 7 years). We have a day off together next week so I’m going to see him to create a resume for him, so he can get a better job that pays more and will involve less hours.

Like myself, he works retail (for a different company) and is basically at work 8am-6pm 5 days a week. He’s got his commute on top of that, and if something big is happening, he may have to put in an extra half day or so here and there too. His wife works part time in yet another retail store (for a different company again), which is about 3 days a week. The kids are in daycare or with grandparents when she works, and when she’s not working the kids are a handful and she’s exhausted after dealing with them on her own all day.

Add to this money problems (they don’t earn enough to do anything; their combined income covers rent, one car, food, childcare, and basic necessities only) and I can see why things are so stressful for them. Even so, I still think much of it is his fault, for not wanting to do ANYTHING around the house and expecting his wife to do everything, but he is starting to realise that their current situation is untenable and if he wants the marriage to work (and he does), then he’s going to have to do more to help.

70

Dammit, missed the edit window.

EXACTLY! And that’s what makes the whole thing so frustrating- if he was maliciously being a dick, then my wife and I could encourage his wife to leave with a clear conscience. Alas, he really doesn’t get it, hence the current situation.

71

As long as we are talking about relationship difficulties, let me tell you about how women can just be batshit insane from my own experinece. I am a professional and my wife is an executive.

Monday - Thursday I leave for work at 7:00 am. I arrive at the office at 8:00. I work the full day until 5:00 until I have to elbow people out of the door to pick up my one year old daughter by 5:35 pm and my five year old daughter by 5:50 pm. We get home about 6:00 pm and we relax for about half an hour before I start making dinner. They are generally done by dinner by 7:15 or 7:30 and we all start cleaning up including unloading the dishwasher and putting their toys away. I put the one year down by 8:45 and get our five year old into PJ’s so that she can see her mother before she goes to bed. Her mother gets home anywhere from 8:30 to the middle of the AM hours in which case I have to put my five year old down at 9:15 or so.

On Fridays, my wife stays at home with the kids and I work extra and get home about 7:00 with a pizza. The weekends are spent on a combination of kid activities and large scale projects because our 2 1/2 acre property still needs some work like tree removal.

None of this would be a problem except that my wife will flat out tell anyone that she would be happy for me to do any work at all. According to her estimates, I do 1% or less of all household responsibilities. She claims she would be happy with 70%. There is no reproach for a man like me except to get defensive and that never works. Besides the extensive child care, the housekeeping, the yard keeping, I also handle our finances and computer tasks like making family pictures and doing taxes.

The problem with women is that most of them are good although few are fully rational but men have no recourse when it comes to damning statements because they tend to be so vague and emotional. There is no way for a man like me to defend himself without filling out a time-sheet in which case I would be an hourly employee to her. That will never happen.

Don’t assume the woman is always the sane and rational one because that is an insane statement that the feminist movement once held and later retracted. More that a few take on the role of a succubus.

From general life experience, I would estimate that females abuse men in some way about 3x the rate that men abuse women. Most men simply aren’t that interested in doing such a thing. Instead they just cheat. As my advisor in a graduate program in behavioral neuroscience once told me, “Women aren’t rational creatures and can’t be considered as such. They are highly unstable and fly off the handle about strange things.” I am not sure I believe that totally and I pray that my daughters don’t turn out that way but I have lived it too many times to discount that statement.

72

Whoa. You sound very tired and very angry, Shagnasty.

I think you and your wife need to sit down, soon, and talk–really talk about these issues.

Ages 2 and 4–that is crunch time. In another 2 years, they will have shifted into 3rd gear and will be cruising. Right now, it’s a challenge. Perhaps a list which divvies up chores for the week would help? Just a thought.

73

Hell. all I want is for someone, anyone to admit that I do any work at all. I don’t even need any real appreciation for it. It is my family. Instead, she tells friends and family that I don’t do any work at all when I spend 9 hours a day physically at work, 2 hours commuting, and 3 hours a day taking care of the house and my young daughters at night by myself. They have no reason to think otherwise. It becomes so disturbing for me to here that from my spouse that I don’t even know what to say. I could try to reason with her or keep records but that would just make me one of those slaves that you read about around this board these days.

She (and her father) are the two most bull-headed people you will ever meet. If they didn’t see it with their own eyes, it didn’t happen. If they don’t think it happened, it didn’t happen. If they think it might not have happened the way it sounds, it didn’t happen. That automatically disqualifies everything I ever do when they aren’t around to study it in depth.

Damn right I am pissed. You can’t rationalize with an irrational person. It is like talking philosophy with a schizophrenic. An odd phrase may sound profound but you will never be able to tie it all together. Never fully trust a wife. You can easily get burned by the insanity. For that matter, never fully trust a husband. They are generally delusional as well. The whole world is fucked up when it comes to the people-relationship interface.

74

May I suggest shock therapy for her? Of course take care of your girls, but don’t pick up anything, get them Happy Meals or whatever (and something for you), no meals, no tidy house etc. Tell her (calmly) you’re doing this or if you don’t want to have an argument then (I wouldn’t give warning)–I’d just tell her when she complains there’s no dinner or the kitchen wasn’t swept or whatever. This may shock her into seeing just how much you do. Wives have done this for years–sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn’t.

I’d also make a list of everything you do. Not a time sheet, but tasks you do every day that she does not notice.

You may not want to hear this right now, but (to me) it sounds like she is overwhelmed, too. Perhaps she is not liking her job. Or perhaps she loves it and yet feels that she should be June Cleaver (many women feel lots of guilt about working outside the home even today). This does NOT make her perspective correct (or her treatment of you any better), but I throw it out there as food for thought.

something has got to give–frankly, to me you sound like you’re at the end of your rope. When does she see the one year old --just on Fridays? She must be feeling guilty about that, and so perhaps she is projecting a whole lot onto you. I don’t know.
Can you all afford to hire household help? Then you can both complain about the maid… I am only being partially facetious. I’m no therapist, but I’ve been a SAHM and a working mom-both have their downsides, but the working mom (and I’ve never put in the hours your wife does) is very, very hard. I know–let me finish. The working dad has it just as hard. Thing is, their hard comes in different ways. She may be so fixated on overwhelmed she is, she doesn’t realize how it’s hard for you. You may be so focussed on how hard it is for you and not notice how it’s hard for her. And so the tabulation starts as to who does more and who didn’t do XYZ.

This is nonproductive and can be toxic to a marriage (I speak from experience). It took me 20 years to get my husband to voluntarily, spontaneously contribute to the cleanliness and upkeep of the house. I still cannot count on certain things being done–and I still feel like he wants an Olympic gold medal for doing something he considers outside his venue. Neverthless, we have stopped having screaming rows about it all. And thank god.

If you find you can talk about this without communication completely breaking down (I suggest you have this talk while alone, out to dinner or away from kids–do not have this talk at home. Too territorial for both of you), may I also suggest a list of expectations drawn up by both of you and then a splitting of the tasks?

I hope this helps. I am sorry you are going through this. Good luck.

PS: there is a culture (or something) among moms of young kids to claim that they are all overwhelmed and put upon. Some are and some aren’t–it’s a damned hard job, whether they’re SAHM or not. However, the meme seems to go that She does it all and He doesn’t. He doesn’t know their shoe sizes or what vaccinations they have had–that sort of thing. I think it’s a way to build solidarity among moms. And there are plenty of moms whose husbands are clueless when it comes to this stuff. Sorry, this got long.

75

Missed the edit window, sorry. Re the OP–I think it may be hopeless. To find someone that clueless re this sort of stuff in this day and age does not bode well. I suggest counseling. And some time off for the wife–alone.

76

I’m really sorry you’re in such a shitty situation, Shagnasty. I don’t have any words of advice and if I did, I doubt I could say it better than eleanorigby. But I do wish you luck and I’m sorry you’re feeling so burned. That would really hurt if my husband didn’t recognize my contributions. Good luck to you and I hope you manage to get through to your wife.

77

So true. Because I am a SAHM, I am more up to date on what shoe sizes the kids wear and when the doctor/dentist/therapy appointments are. That’s part of my job. I know what they had for snacks, and when the last diaper was changed, and who took a nap when. That’s just what I do all day.

But I would never denigrate my husband for not knowing this daily minutia. He has his own work, and I have mine. I don’t know what he’s planning for 9 a.m. tomorrow, but I know I’m planning to put one baby down for a nap, send one to his room to play, take a shower, then stick at least one kid in the bathtub, then start another load of laundry, etc.

I do feel overwhelmed, but I have slightly unusual circumstances (a kid with special needs, and two younger ones). I know my husband feels overwhelmed when he walks in the door and three little boys pounce on him, demanding his full attention, when all he wants to do is take off his boots and sit down for a minute.

78

You’re a good friend. When I read about the first job I thought, that’s not too bad. The second one is the kicker. I suspect two jobs for 11 hours a day total is worse than one. Just surviving under these conditions is something to be proud of. I hope he can find a job that will make his life better. And he should forget about clean floors!

79

I think that he has one retail job and his wife another, but I could be reading it wrong.

80

I fought a similar marital problem. My husband didn’t grow up with servants, but with a super mother. She was a single mother of two kids who worked full time, kept a spotless house, and is a terrific cook. Worse still, he lived with her until two weeks before we were married. He was not your stereotypical bachelor slob. He liked a clean house, but had no idea the amount of work it entailed.
For the first several years we both worked full time, and our #1 argument was over housework. He thought he did plenty - after all, he took out the trash just a few days ago! His attitude was that any work he did was “helping” me.

We had a kid and he became a full time at-home parent. Boy was that ever an eye opener! He understands now. And I’ve had to lower my standards a good bit. Things don’t get done the way I’d do them, but they get done. Eventually.

I don’t know if a weekend is enough time for the OP’s friend to learn how hard his wife’s tasks are, and I’m not sure telling him will get it through his head. It sounds like he needs to lighten up his expectations, and maybe cut the self pity down a notch. I think there’s a tendency to think, “Poor me, I’ve worked all these hours and this is what I come home to? What has she been doing all day, anyway?!” (sometimes I have to catch myself at that one, and I know better)