Lol, what exactly about that conversation was supposed to convince him to a “commitment to dismantling racism”? Because they were so mad they must be right? Right about something he didn’t even grok?
No, this black acquaintance is not required to be Ambi’s sherpa. But if you want people on board, you need some sherpas. White supremacists can be angry and tell me to “try google” too. It’s not meaningful.
Sure. But to characterize me asking, in casual conversation, what a FB friend’s personal thoughts were in re to multiple posts on a subject they had recently shared, as “putting the burden to fix onto the oppressed” is to strain credulity. Mark knows me well. He knows im not any kind of troll or active “oppressor” who is engaged with him in bad faith. We’ve been in countless good faith arguments over the years. I didnt ask him to tell me what i needed to do, I asked him what he thought.
I only realized much too late that it wasnt the place for me to ask him questions, he wasnt sharing these posts to have his mind picked by those who didnt immediately understand and relate to the words in those posts. If we (ignorant but eager to learn) wanted to understand, it was our responsibility to take it upon ourselves to learn what we needed to learn.
OK, I’ve read that, it’s a short read – Accept, Recognize, Know, Talk, Talk, Think. Still nothing in there that I can actually do.
Private Facebook groups. The Root. Coloured Twitter. Lots of places where, suffice to say, the OP would just draw derisive laughter, at best. The question “What white nonsense is this?” would already have been asked, possibly multiple times.
And 6 decades later, the onus is still on the PoC to do all the hurting? Naah, son.
As a black person who spends a lot of time around white folk (primarily at work) I frequently find that I am the ONLY black person these white folks know and feel like they can access. I have found that white folks (and white culture in general) go to extraordinary lengths to minimize any and all contact with non-white people then turn around and act all confused as to why they have these huge racial blind spots. I believe this to be a big problem and potentially the root cause of a lot of the racial division we have always been challenged with.
As a black person I have had a lifetime of training as to what offends white people and how to operate in white culture so as not to cause myself or others any problems. I also learned the same things about black people, (and later on as my social circle continued to expand) Latino folks and Asian folks as well. I’m my opinion, white people ONLY learn how to operate in white environments and it shows
And I am sick and fucking tired of having to hold each and every white persons hand who happens to finally realize that racism is real and wants to learn/help/whatever. Ask your black friends for help. If you have no black friends to ask and have to resort to a work friend, Facebook acquaintance or random black person on a message board then maybe that’s part of the problem and maybe that is where you should start your journey.
What you did was put the burden of explanation on us. You made us responsible for your understanding and education while you sit back and do nothing. I understand that probably wasn’t your intention but I simply cannot express how infuriating it is to have to explain this shit white folks over and over and over again. No one wants to be responsible for your education. Especially not someone who doesn’t consider you to be a close friend. Black folks are the ones who have to deal with the negative effects of racism yet white people continue to act like they deserve all the special treatment when trying to navigate these particular waters.
I have thoughts, feelings and opinions that I am hesitant to share IRL because there is a very real possibility that white folks are going to make me their personal spokesman for racial relations and assume my opinions are the gospel according to black people. It’s almost like white folks cant help but think that we are one monolithic group of hive minded people and if you can get one black person to agree then all black people will automatically agree as well.
If white people really want to actually make a substantial change to race relations in this country then I would suggest you go out and make serious effort to expand your non-work social circle to include at least a few black folks. See how they live. Meet their friends and family and see what challenges they face and how the racial climate of America effects their daily lives. Be around when they have to deal with some racist bullshit and witness first hand the effects it has on their demeanor.
Learn by being part of our lives and not by sitting back and studying us like we’re some type of wild animals to be studied from afar.
First of all, please forgive me if I’ve placed this thread in the wrong forum. If the moderators feel it necessary, they can move it to where they see fit. If I’ve failed some “Great Debates” test of excellence, i bow as a humbled man.
Secondly, my conversation with Mark had absolutely and utterly nothing to do with dismantling racism, despite my brief efforts at the outset to engage him in just that topic. Also, i didnt need any conversation with him to become committed to dismantling racism. That commitment had already been pretty well formed. I asked for his opinion on what he shared as a way of adding valuable, needed perspective to that comittment.
It was just about completely devoted to me trying to understand why he was, as i saw it, stonewalling me in what I thought was a reasonable and most likely to be welcomed question. Please try to abstain from mischaracterizing anything ive previously written, i never said i was being treated “unfairly” by anyone, much less by my “black friend”. I also did not ever say he was rude to me. I was only ever confused and desirous of understanding what brought about his tip-lipped responses.
It’s concerning to me that you can read everything here and then post what did with a straight face.
Onus? I don’t even get where you’re going here. “Baring of wounds” is to get non-victimized people on board. But that’s no fair and it’s white people’s turn? How does that make sense?
Don’t overestimate how much effort this takes. I chose to live in a neighborhood with good public schools, which in my city means choosing from one of 5 or 6 neighborhoods that are 99% white. I understand that there are black families who can afford to live in one of these neighborhoods but choose not to because they don’t want to live in a white neighborhood. I get that, and I get that the few black families that do live here must be exhausted from “acting white” in public. This is a privilege of mine, but I didn’t go to great lengths for it, it’s sorta just the default. As a consequence of having 3 kids I tend to only socialize with other parents, and as a consequence of living in a white neighborhood they tend to be white parents. Again, this requires no effort and is just what happens in central Ohio when you choose a house based on school ratings.
It’s true that my only social interactions with black people are at one of my two jobs, but that’s because I’m over 30 which means I only have like 2 actual friends. Making friends is hard so again, socializing with black people would require socializing in the first place, which is already a challenge.
I think this touches on a lot of what you said and a lot of what we’ve seen and heard about white privilege and never having to “code switch.” Being in the majority or plurality means never really having to be uncomfortable if you don’t want to.
I will say, that based directly on your post here I’ve decided to talk to my wife about identifying black owned small businesses to patronize, which will force us to leave our little bubble here. It feels like something I can actually do that’s not just talking or thinking. No need to respond but if I’m off track feel free to let me know. Of course, being white we tend to seek out vegan restaurants, hopefully that doesn’t cause issues…
Just for informative purposes, here were the two shared items that ultimately sparked this thread. I shared the original source, so none of the conversations or private info is on these posts.
It is only by unquestioning obedience to those above you in the racial hierarchy that racism can be defeated
Yeah, no. That was not what Ambi was doing.
Are there times that the privileged among us ask how they can help and then respond in that way? Sure. And have there also been many times that the privileged have listened and tried to understand from another perspective, sometimes in various ways doing things that have helped? Also sure. Progress happens when the latter has at least a chance to occur.
LHOD also read that link.
And mostly agreed with steronz …
Realize I am white. Check. (Hopefully I can still make my comments about how there is not any single American Black or Hispanic culture though.)
Recognize my white privilege. I got that privilege and much more and I recognize it. Privileges alone did not make my accomplishments for me but they helped mightily and without them my same efforts and skills would have very likely had … different outcomes. I have been advantaged and I know it.
Know things. I got the facts about implicit racism and structural features that perpetuate outcomes with racist impacts fairly well. I am aware that despite best efforts I will likely be guilty of making unwarranted assumptions and can try to be more aware of it.
Talk to my people. Do that but let’s be real, I live in a fairly highly educated upper SES liberal cohort who mostly get the above.
Talk to Black people. Actually bad advice. Better not to talk “to” but “with”, spending more of the time listening, and as noted to lots of people who may share skin color but different perspectives and thought. Ambi tried to, was wanting to listen, and was told he was placing a burden by doing that, was the white patriarchy incarnate.
Think. Something that works best when it is fueled with information.
To me, responding on Facebook to a person you don’t interact with in real life seems like “vocal people in Cyberspace”. I talk about these issues with black friends and students quite a bit–but they are friends and students, people I know well that I have had lots of other interactions with.
But you weren’t just talking to him. You were talking to all the black people who read his Facebook, most of whom don’t know you from Adam.
Sure, but when a privileged person wants to have such a conversation with a person who lacks privilege, they need to understand this context of dishonest and manipulative “discourse” and couch their statements in a way that reflects that awareness. The whole topic is laden with an incredibly heavy burden of intellectual dishonesty.
If I wanted to reduce crime, I wouldn’t look to crime victims to do the heavy lifting of figuring out what the problem was and what solutions would work the best.
No i was specifically directing my question to him personally. It was his post, on his wall and his opinions that i sought. And i may “only interact with him on FB” these days but ive known Mark for more than 26 years and those years began as knowing him in real life. And ive interacted with him more substantially that most all of my other FB friends, we have similar appetites for a desire to get our points across. Just to point out, I’ve made it clear many times throughout this thread that Mark was a former HS classmate of mine. So you just kind of made up the part about only ever interacting with him on FB.
If you shout a question across a crowded room at someone, you aren’t speaking just to them.
And I’m basing the conclusion that you don’t see him much in real life on the fact that after this interaction you didn’t apparently have a chance or opportunity to speak to him personally.
So if we want to decrease domestic abuse, talking to abused women about their experiences would be wrong?
Something else to consider is the peer mentality of the Facebook thread. Your classmate responded to you in the context of a thread where the idea of “not doing the white man’s homework for him” may be a common and well-accepted idea. To give you a substantive response in that thread might have invited negativity from his peers.
It’s possible (though by no means certain) that if you could meet your classmate one-on-one for a coffee he would be more willing to have a conversation with you on the subject.
Not in our current life situations, no
But i also havent had anything but fb interactions with a large percentage of my family for even longer stretches. So what? And i did speak to him privately. I consulted him before i posted here and i asked him where he felt it most appropriate for me to post the link to this thread.
And where in the world does this characterization of one fb friend asking another fb friend a direct question on the comments section of their own post as somehow “shouting a question across a room of crowded people” come from? It honestly makes no sensee. bnI wasnt fb friends with any of the other friends of his that ultimately commented. I was speaking one on one to one single person.
Nothing whatsoever. I want to be clear on this point, because it’s important: it’s not Ambivalid’s black acquaintance’s responsibility to convince Ambivalid to be antiracist. Being antiracist isn’t a position you should have to be coddled and cajoled and enticed into. It’s a position you should hold by virtue of not being an awful person.
Turn it around: are you convinced that dismantling racism is important?
If Ambivalid is approaching this as something that his black acquaintance has any obligation to do, then he’s approaching it poorly.
I genuinely don’t understand what distinction you’re drawing here between thinking that your friend (who is black and talking about race) is stonewalling you, and my characterizing that as thinking that you’re being treated unfairly by your black friend. Do you think that being stonewalled is fair treatment or something?
It really comes across as argument-through-nitpickery instead of addressing the underlying issue.