How can you fight that of which you are ignorant? (dismantling racism) (long, sorry)

[BeagleJesus]

@steronz

Don’t overestimate how much effort this takes. I chose to live in a neighborhood with good public schools, which in my city means choosing from one of 5 or 6 neighborhoods that are 99% white. I understand that there are black families who can afford to live in one of these neighborhoods but choose not to because they don’t want to live in a white neighborhood. I get that, and I get that the few black families that do live here must be exhausted from “acting white” in public. This is a privilege of mine, but I didn’t go to great lengths for it, it’s sorta just the default. As a consequence of having 3 kids I tend to only socialize with other parents, and as a consequence of living in a white neighborhood they tend to be white parents. Again, this requires no effort and is just what happens in central Ohio when you choose a house based on school ratings.

It’s true that my only social interactions with black people are at one of my two jobs, but that’s because I’m over 30 which means I only have like 2 actual friends. Making friends is hard so again, socializing with black people would require socializing in the first place, which is already a challenge.

I think this touches on a lot of what you said and a lot of what we’ve seen and heard about white privilege and never having to “code switch.” Being in the majority or plurality means never really having to be uncomfortable if you don’t want to.

I will say, that based directly on your post here I’ve decided to talk to my wife about identifying black owned small businesses to patronize, which will force us to leave our little bubble here. It feels like something I can actually do that’s not just talking or thinking. No need to respond but if I’m off track feel free to let me know. Of course, being white we tend to seek out vegan restaurants, hopefully that doesn’t cause issues…

This is good stuff dude…I can definitely see how seeking the path of least resistance can cause each of us slowly get locked into our own little bubbles.

I can tell you that a lot of middle/upper class black folks I know have had similar experiences you had when seeking out good school districts. They want their kids to have all of the advantages they can possibly provide but at the same time they want their kids to be immersed in the black American cultural experience. Depending on your location this doesn’t appear to be an easy task.

I wish I had more substantial advice or suggestions on how to overcome this divide but I’m afraid all I can offer at this time is my perspective.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@steronz

Don’t overestimate how much effort this takes. I chose to live in a neighborhood with good public schools, which in my city means choosing from one of 5 or 6 neighborhoods that are 99% white.

I want to interrogate the phrase “good public schools.” There’s a pernicious tendency of white parents to perpetuate school segregation by using this phrase. What happens is that upper-middle-class parents choose schools based on test scores, which due to historical segregation means choosing mostly-white schools. These schools don’t necessarily have better teachers, better equipment, or better facilities; they just have richer, whiter families going there.

When you say that choosing a better schoool meant choosing to live in a 99% white neighborhood, it’s pretty hard to read that as anything other than a deliberate choice for school and housing segregation. That wasn’t just you going with the flow. It wouldn’t have taken any effort for you to make a different choice. You had to make a real effort to find those 5 or 6 all-white neighborhoods to live in and to restrict your housing search to those.

At first I thought your use of “overestimate” was an error. Maybe you really meant it?

[Ambivalid]

@Akaj

Something else to consider is the peer mentality of the Facebook thread. Your classmate responded to you in the context of a thread where the idea of “not doing the white man’s homework for him” may be a common and well-accepted idea. To give you a substantive response in that thread might have invited negativity from his peers.

It’s possible (though by no means certain) that if you could meet your classmate one-on-one for a coffee he would be more willing to have a conversation with you on the subject.

Idk, i mean he was no different in private messages. Just as unyielding and tight-lipped. And i would have to see about when he next comes back to MI. I know he does i just dont know how often. He is down in, ugh, some in the southern Tennessee area state.

[iiandyiiii]

From talking to lots of other white people about racism, ISTM that many have this extremely strong need to be validated, especially by black folks (and other non-white folks) that they are “one of the good ones” (i.e. a non-racist white person). To the point that I’ve seen conversations literally stop because a white guy is insisting that he be positively affirmed as a non-racist white man before they continue (I’ve seen it on this board many times, but also IRL). And any hint that maybe they aren’t totally 100% perfectly enlightened on racial issues might be shattering to them.

ISTM that this is incredibly exhausting for non-white folks, to constantly feel a bullshit obligation/pressure to praise and affirm their white acquaintances personally any time the issue comes up.

I bring this up because I sense this sort of tone from the OP’s description of how he handled this discussion, even if it doesn’t appear that he explicitly said so. You may not even consciously be aware of it. If this is at all accurate, then I’d suggest you step back and think about it. No one is obligated to tell you that you’re not a racist. No one is obligated to tell any white person that they’re not racist (except maybe John Brown). You aren’t owed anything, even explanations, regarding this topic, from your black friends and acquaintances. If they want to explain things to you, then that’s great on them, but they’re under no such obligation. That’d be doing you a big favor – which maybe some folks will be in the mood for sometimes, but sometimes they won’t. That’s okay.

[Ambivalid]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Nothing whatsoever. I want to be clear on this point, because it’s important: it’s not Ambivalid’s black acquaintance’s responsibility to convince Ambivalid to be antiracist. Being antiracist isn’t a position you should have to be coddled and cajoled and enticed into. It’s a position you should hold by virtue of not being an awful person.

Turn it around: are you convinced that dismantling racism is important?

If Ambivalid is approaching this as something that his black acquaintance has any obligation to do, then he’s approaching it poorly.
I genuinely don’t understand what distinction you’re drawing here between thinking that your friend (who is black and talking about race) is stonewalling you, and my characterizing that as thinking that you’re being treated unfairly by your black friend. Do you think that being stonewalled is fair treatment or something?

It really comes across as argument-through-nitpickery instead of addressing the underlying issue.

For me to say i was being treated unfairly would be for me to imply i understood (and disagreed with) the reasons for the "stonewalling. Heck, i may have very well been on the deserving end of that lip-lipped verbal shunning but at the time i didnt have any grasp of why it was happening, what role i was or was not playing in bringing it about or if i had gravely miscommunicated something that, if only properly communicated, would have prevented this.

It fucking of course wasn’t his responsibility to do one fucking thing for me at all. My original question to him in no way was an “attempt to be convinced” of any such absurd notion. was merely a passing question to a person i thought might be interested in sharing his thoughts with me, considering his recent posts on the matter. Once he made it clear that it wasnt his role, i dropped those questions. My issue then became a complete inability to understand why he saw my casual question as such an affront. I was NEVER offenfed by it. I was simply baffled

[steronz]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

I want to interrogate the phrase “good public schools.” There’s a pernicious tendency of white parents to perpetuate school segregation by using this phrase. What happens is that upper-middle-class parents choose schools based on test scores, which due to historical segregation means choosing mostly-white schools. These schools don’t necessarily have better teachers, better equipment, or better facilities; they just have richer, whiter families going there.

When you say that choosing a better schoool meant choosing to live in a 99% white neighborhood, it’s pretty hard to read that as anything other than a deliberate choice for school and housing segregation. That wasn’t just you going with the flow. It wouldn’t have taken any effort for you to make a different choice. You had to make a real effort to find those 5 or 6 all-white neighborhoods to live in and to restrict your housing search to those.

At first I thought your use of “overestimate” was an error. Maybe you really meant it?

In some respects, LHOD, it’s so, so much worse than you even know. I agree with everything you say and could tell you details about my specific neighborhood that would make you cringe (or you can search through my post history, I’ve talked about it before on here).

That said, are you suggesting that “I want to live in a good school district, for my kids” is itself a misguided statement? I’d like to know more about that.

Also, I definitely intended to say “overestimate.” BeagleJesus suggested that white people went out of their way to avoid PoC, I think he’s overestimating how much effort that actually takes us. It’s quite easy, unfortunately.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Ambivalid

For me to say i was being treated unfairly would be for me to imply i understood (and disagreed with) the reasons for the "stonewalling. Heck, i may have very well been on the deserving end of that lip-lipped verbal shunning but at the time i didnt have any grasp of why it was happening, what role i was or was not playing in bringing it about or if i had gravely miscommunicated something that, if only properly communicated, would have prevented this.

So it sounds like you think stonewalling can be fair. Is that true? It’s not how I’ve used the word, which may be the confusion.

It fucking of course wasn’t his responsibility to do one fucking thing for me at all. My original question to him in no way was an “attempt to be convinced” of any such absurd notion. was merely a passing question to a person i thought might be interested in sharing his thoughts with me, considering his recent posts on the matter. Once he made it clear that it wasnt his role, i dropped those questions. My issue then became a complete inability to understand why he saw my casual question as such an affront. I was NEVER offenfed by it. I was simply baffled

Note that you’re responding here to my response to CarnalK. I’m not accusing you in that post of thinking he had any such responsibility. That was CarnalK’s implication.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@steronz

In some respects, LHOD, it’s so, so much worse than you even know. I agree with everything you say and could tell you details about my specific neighborhood that would make you cringe (or you can search through my post history, I’ve talked about it before on here).

That said, are you suggesting that “I want to live in a good school district, for my kids” is itself a misguided statement? I’d like to know more about that.

Did you check out that link about school segregation? There’s a This American Life about the same issue, which really opened my eyes. Yeah, I think that the “I want to live in a good school district” approach is very often a misguided approach. Not always, but from what I’ve read and heard, the definition of “good school district” is based on metrics that look relevant but really aren’t, and ignore metrics that don’t looks so relevant but really are.

[ASL_v2.0]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

I want to interrogate the phrase “good public schools.” There’s a pernicious tendency of white parents to perpetuate school segregation by using this phrase. What happens is that upper-middle-class parents choose schools based on test scores, which due to historical segregation means choosing mostly-white schools. These schools don’t necessarily have better teachers, better equipment, or better facilities; they just have richer, whiter families going there.

Vox did a short (I think six minute) video on this specifically about a month ago: How online ratings make good schools look bad.

Coincidentally, today, there is a ProPublica article out about a tangentially related issue: How Wealthy Towns Keep People With Housing Vouchers Out.

I mean, I personally grew up in what you might call a “wealthy neighborhood.” Which is not to say most families were wealthy (nowhere near) but that the median income and home values were much higher than average compared to other school districts, both in Texas and nationwide, and so although Texas overall has a notoriously lousy school system, my particular district was one of the best in the nation (at some point, I believe it was even THE best). Why? Because property taxes, that’s why.

It would be nice to think that anyone who “really cared” about their children’s education could find their way to such a neighborhood and “suck it up” at a minimum wage job (the quintessential “McDonalds is always hiring” retort) for as long as it takes to get their kids the needed education, but for a number of reasons that’s not exactly a viable option for many/most. For one, see the thread about ways that being poor makes it even harder to accumulate wealth (in this case, the cost of moving may be prohibitive, and maybe that job at McDonalds doesn’t actually cover the cost of renting—let alone buying—in one of these high income areas with good schools, and even if you can get a federal low income housing subsidy, as described in the PP article, it might just turn out no one is interested in your money).

Gosh, that was a lot to type and I probably haven’t even cracked the surface on a highly nuanced issue. In fact, off the top of my head there’s other factors, which relate directly to systemic racism and the enduring legacy of Jim Crow-era legislation, that I just don’t have time to dig up cites on right now. Which may in part explain why a response of “Cite please!” however well phrased, however well meant, may not elicit the response you’re looking for when you go digging after a meme someone has posted.

My question for the OP would be, irrespective of what may have prompted your acquaintance to post the particular meme that started this series of comments and ultimately this thread, can YOU think of any glaring issues that might tend to lend credence to the idea that this country has still not resolved issues relating to systemic racism and oppression of minorities? Because if you can, I’m not sure why you would need to ask your acquaintance for examples in the first place. If you can’t, well… I guess I wouldn’t want to accuse you of anything, so I’ll hold off until I’ve read your response, if there is one.

[Ambivalid]

@iiandyiiii

From talking to lots of other white people about racism, ISTM that many have this extremely strong need to be validated, especially by black folks (and other non-white folks) that they are “one of the good ones” (i.e. a non-racist white person). To the point that I’ve seen conversations literally stop because a white guy is insisting that he be positively affirmed as a non-racist white man before they continue (I’ve seen it on this board many times, but also IRL). And any hint that maybe they aren’t totally 100% perfectly enlightened on racial issues might be shattering to them.

ISTM that this is incredibly exhausting for non-white folks, to constantly feel a bullshit obligation/pressure to praise and affirm their white acquaintances personally any time the issue comes up.

I bring this up because I sense this sort of tone from the OP’s description of how he handled this discussion, even if it doesn’t appear that he explicitly said so. You may not even consciously be aware of it. If this is at all accurate, then I’d suggest you step back and think about it. No one is obligated to tell you that you’re not a racist. No one is obligated to tell any white person that they’re not racist (except maybe John Brown). You aren’t owed anything, even explanations, regarding this topic, from your black friends and acquaintances. If they want to explain things to you, then that’s great on them, but they’re under no such obligation. That’d be doing you a big favor – which maybe some folks will be in the mood for sometimes, but sometimes they won’t. That’s okay.

Could you maybe go a little more in depth as to this tone you read into in this discussion of mine that gave you this impression? Because as ive stated before, virtually no part of our conversation actually touched on anything directed related to racism. Our conversation was just about in totality regarding the refusal on his part to even give me so much as his own opinion on what he had just posted on Facebook and my inability to come to an understanding of why he had done this. The conversation had explicit racial undertones but i was not at all in any way asserting that he 1) had any obligation to give me his opinion on anything nor 2) that he had any obligation to explain his reasoning for not giving those opinions to me.
I only wanted to understand. Thats it. I wasnt trying to be convinced of the need to be antiracist. I wasnt feeling he had any obligation in any scenario to do anything for me whatsoever. And i never felt he was being rude or that i was being treated unfairly. I only wanted to understand what was happening in this interaction, things that i genuinely did not understand. I only realize now that FB was not the place for me to gain that understanding.

[iiandyiiii]

@Ambivalid

Could you maybe go a little more in depth as to this tone you read into in this discussion of mine that gave you this impression.

My impression comes from what appears to me to be your great concern (and possible offense) that you were called “the epitome of the white supremacist patriarchy” by strangers.

[Ambivalid]

@ASL_v2.0

Vox did a short (I think six minute) video on this specifically about a month ago: How online ratings make good schools look bad.

Coincidentally, today, there is a ProPublica article out about a tangentially related issue: How Wealthy Towns Keep People With Housing Vouchers Out.

I mean, I personally grew up in what you might call a “wealthy neighborhood.” Which is not to say most families were wealthy (nowhere near) but that the median income and home values were much higher than average compared to other school districts, both in Texas and nationwide, and so although Texas overall has a notoriously lousy school system, my particular district was one of the best in the nation (at some point, I believe it was even THE best). Why? Because property taxes, that’s why.

It would be nice to think that anyone who “really cared” about their children’s education could find their way to such a neighborhood and “suck it up” at a minimum wage job (the quintessential “McDonalds is always hiring” retort) for as long as it takes to get their kids the needed education, but for a number of reasons that’s not exactly a viable option for many/most. For one, see the thread about ways that being poor makes it even harder to accumulate wealth (in this case, the cost of moving may be prohibitive, and maybe that job at McDonalds doesn’t actually cover the cost of renting—let alone buying—in one of these high income areas with good schools, and even if you can get a federal low income housing subsidy, as described in the PP article, it might just turn out no one is interested in your money).

Gosh, that was a lot to type and I probably haven’t even cracked the surface on a highly nuanced issue. In fact, off the top of my head there’s other factors, which relate directly to systemic racism and the enduring legacy of Jim Crow-era legislation, that I just don’t have time to dig up cites on right now. Which may in part explain why a response of “Cite please!” however well phrased, however well meant, may not elicit the response you’re looking for when you go digging after a meme someone has posted.

My question for the OP would be, irrespective of what may have prompted your acquaintance to post the particular meme that started this series of comments and ultimately this thread, can YOU think of any glaring issues that might tend to lend credence to the idea that this country has still not resolved issues relating to systemic racism and oppression of minorities? Because if you can, I’m not sure why you would need to ask your acquaintance for examples in the first place. If you can’t, well… I guess I wouldn’t want to accuse you of anything, so I’ll hold off until I’ve read your response, if there is one.

I did not ask him for examples of issues that lend credence to the idea that racism and oppression of minorities is still alive and well! Where in the hell did thst come from? I asked him if he had any personal thoughts on ways combat this racism and oppression! I dont need to be shown or fucking convinced that racism is alive and well! Jesus. Ive lived in Flint Mi all my life. Tjat right there alone is enough to know racism isnt dead.

[puddleglum]

@steronz

Don’t overestimate how much effort this takes. I chose to live in a neighborhood with good public schools, which in my city means choosing from one of 5 or 6 neighborhoods that are 99% white. I understand that there are black families who can afford to live in one of these neighborhoods but choose not to because they don’t want to live in a white neighborhood. I get that, and I get that the few black families that do live here must be exhausted from “acting white” in public. This is a privilege of mine, but I didn’t go to great lengths for it, it’s sorta just the default. As a consequence of having 3 kids I tend to only socialize with other parents, and as a consequence of living in a white neighborhood they tend to be white parents. Again, this requires no effort and is just what happens in central Ohio when you choose a house based on school ratings.

It’s true that my only social interactions with black people are at one of my two jobs, but that’s because I’m over 30 which means I only have like 2 actual friends. Making friends is hard so again, socializing with black people would require socializing in the first place, which is already a challenge.

I think this touches on a lot of what you said and a lot of what we’ve seen and heard about white privilege and never having to “code switch.” Being in the majority or plurality means never really having to be uncomfortable if you don’t want to.

I will say, that based directly on your post here I’ve decided to talk to my wife about identifying black owned small businesses to patronize, which will force us to leave our little bubble here. It feels like something I can actually do that’s not just talking or thinking. No need to respond but if I’m off track feel free to let me know. Of course, being white we tend to seek out vegan restaurants, hopefully that doesn’t cause issues…

The idea that you would put the welfare of your children above ant-racism is deeply problematic. That should be self evident.

I almost reported your post, but, when I saw that you and your wife plan on frequenting black owned vegan small businesses, that turned it all around. Keep on fighting the good fight and I will be sure to mention your name when Hero of the People Medal nomination time comes.

[TheCuse]

@CarnalK

So if we want to decrease domestic abuse, talking to abused women about their experiences would be wrong?

Seriously? MANDY JO did not allude to that kind of thinking, and you know it. You seemed to forget about the “heavy lifting” thing.

[Ambivalid]

@iiandyiiii

My impression comes from what appears to me to be your great concern (and possible offense) that you were called “the epitome of the white supremacist patriarchy” by strangers.

Ive mentioned that more in passing than as a central part of my story. I mean, yea, obviously i know such a thing is absurd and not something that has any real validity , as it comes from strangers who know nothing about me or my life but just the fact that i was so easily called that by numerous people in that thread was slightly appalling in the moment. I was never offended. It did concern me a bit tho, this much was true. I never made any attempt in that thread to show that i wasn’t this epitome of white supremacist patriarchy. I am capable enough to recognize when something is not to be treated as rational discourse. These were more drive-by comments than meaningful contributions. Still “you are the epitome of the white supremacist patriarchy” is a galling thing to read another person say about you, whatever the reason behind it.

[CarnalK]

@TheCuse

Seriously? MANDY JO did not allude to that kind of thinking, and you know it. You seemed to forget about the “heavy lifting” thing.

No, Manda Jo and you forgot that heavy lifting has nothing to do with a Facebook conversation. And you know it? I would think?

[puddleglum]

@Ambivalid

Ive mentioned that more in passing than as a central part of my story. I mean, yea, obviously i know such a thing is absurd and not something that has any real validity , as it comes from strangers who know nothing about me or my life but just the fact that i was so easily called that by numerous people in that thread was slightly appalling in the moment. I was never offended. It did concern me a bit tho, this much was true. I never made any attempt in that thread to show that i wasn’t this epitome of white supremacist patriarchy. I am capable enough to recognize when something is not to be treated as rational discourse. These were more drive-by comments than meaningful contributions. Still “you are the epitome of the white supremacist patriarchy” is a galling thing to read another person say about you, whatever the reason behind it.

Instead of being galled, you should look in the mirror and resolve to change whatever was in you that forced that person to call you that.

[MandaJo]

@CarnalK

So if we want to decrease domestic abuse, talking to abused women about their experiences would be wrong?

No. But demanding abused women come up with the solution, without any support from the wider establishment, then ignoring or dismissing their suggestions, and then asking them to ONCE AGAIN tell us how to fix the mess we all collectively made together as a society WOULD be. And if there was that history with abused women, I would be extra super careful not not start out that conversation in this way.

[MandaJo]

@Ambivalid

Ive mentioned that more in passing than as a central part of my story. I mean, yea, obviously i know such a thing is absurd and not something that has any real validity , as it comes from strangers who know nothing about me or my life but just the fact that i was so easily called that by numerous people in that thread was slightly appalling in the moment. I was never offended. It did concern me a bit tho, this much was true. I never made any attempt in that thread to show that i wasn’t this epitome of white supremacist patriarchy. I am capable enough to recognize when something is not to be treated as rational discourse. These were more drive-by comments than meaningful contributions. Still “you are the epitome of the white supremacist patriarchy” is a galling thing to read another person say about you, whatever the reason behind it.

Well, okay, but what they saw of you was some drive-by white dude saying “Ok, well, what do you think we should do about it?”, which has very often been the exact reasoning used to justify doing nothing. Do you see how that could be perceived as patronizing?

[iiandyiiii]

@puddleglum

Instead of being galled, you should look in the mirror and resolve to change whatever was in you that forced that person to call you that.

Ha! I assume this is an attempt at an impression of the kind of fantasy-world SJW that lives only in Rush Limbaugh’s imagination? If so, how 'bout another one? Maybe you could do the fake Obama that haunts Trump’s dreams?