OP, be sure to take this with a shaker of salt. This is a guy who is chronically unemployed and lives off of his parents’ investment portfolio in a basement. Really.
Well, it’s a ground floor apartment, actually. But yeah, I’m a sponge. A schnorrer. A layabout. I might work 25-30 days a year as a jazz saxophonist and/or freelance editorial dude. I cross the street rather than speak to decent people. But as you might surmise, some of it is because I don’t have the right work ethic. My cynicism is far, far beyond the practical.
I understand that she might not be able to find a job on demand. But she needs to start doing something to develop the mentality of working.
If she can’t find a job, have her start doing some volunteer work instead. And a regular schedule of it, not just some occasional thing when you push her enough.
OP, you really should be encouraging your daughter to get an education. And by encouraging, I mean insisting. She needs to be able to support herself now and in the future. Even if she gets married and doesn’t have to work, there’s a good chance that some day she will be divorced or widowed or otherwise economically disadvantaged, with children, and she’ll really need some job skills. It doesn’t have to mean college or anything long, drawn-out, or expensive. Even knowing how to cut hair or work in a doctor’s office would be something. Sitting at home doing nothing should not even be an option.
I would have a very serious conversation with her.
The modeling thing sounds like an adolescent fantasy, but let’s grant that she is indeed looking into it. Everyone has a dream. But people with dreams usually do some sweating in the trenches while they try to make it happen. If she won’t get a paying gig while she seeks out modeling work, require her to “pay” for rent by doing all household stuff. Yes, ALL of it. Dishes, laundry, dusting, vacuuming, EVERYTHING. If she doesn’t like that idea, then she can look for alternative housing arrangements. No money for a deposit on an apartment? Well, I guess that means you need to get a job then and build up some savings. You don’t want to work in unskilled labor? Well, I guess that means you better go to school. Don’t give her any leeway or wiggle room. I don’t know what the law is in the UK, but you are not legally responsible for an 18-year-old in the US. And if she has friends or other family members that she has close ties to, that means there’s a couch she can crash on if need be.
Yes, I would consider the possibility that she’s afraid and/or depressed. But sitting in her bedroom all day will not cure these things; eventually she will need to “grow up”. If you have a genuine heart-to-heart with her and she reveals to you her feelings about life, be compassionate and sensitive. But still insist that she needs to buck up. You will help her in the process, but tell her you are 100% serious about her needing to change.
I’m not into strict timelines. If she busts her hump fruitlessly looking for work for a month, it would not be fair to kick her out. But I would tell her that at least by the end of the year, she should be doing something more impressive with her life than what she’s doing now (which could mean volunteering somewhere, doing odd jobs in the community, or anything else that gets her out into the “world”).
The longer she prolongs her adolescence, the harder it will be for her to break out of it. So you have to find the right mix of gentleness and sternness that will help her bust a move.
Of course she doesn’t want to help around the house. What she needs to understand is that there’s a special club for people who don’t want to do housework; it’s called everybody. She should contact her local chapter for meeting times and locations. And then she should pull up her big girl underpants and accept that her options are either to do housework or to live in squalor, and the latter is only an option in her own place.
I wouldn’t necessarily charge her rent till she turns 18, but you do need to make it clear to her that she will need to start paying you some amount you and your mother have agreed is reasonable and fair at that point. Tell her how much it will be, and if need be sit down with her and figure up how long her savings will cover that. And make sure she understands the consequences there will be for her not paying her rent–up to and including booting her ass out. Remind her of this every month or two until she gets a job. If she doesn’t get off her ass and winds up getting kicked out…well, at that point she has nobody to blame but herself.
I echo what others have said. My kids had chores from the beginning and were expected to help around the house as they were able. It was pretty dam simple. We live here together, we share the workload. There was no other option.
As much as it hurts you have to get realistic and set some decent boundaries and rules. You have to be willing to draw a hard line. Enforce the rules. If she threatens to move out, you may have to let her. She’s not a little kid. Stop treating her like one.
Does she have a car? Who pays for that?
And yes, I understand that being 18 and all it entails can be pretty scary. But you know what? Being 5 and starting school all by yourself can be pretty scary, too. So is being 12 and that adolescent bullshit crashing down on you. Being 25 and hitting that first OMG, where is the time going? moment is scary too. Transitional points are scary, and there’s a hell of a lot of 'em in the average life, so I certainly wouldn’t coddle her on that point. Sympathize, yes. Coddle, no.
Come back when he’s 18. It’s hard to find any three year old in the whole world who isn’t excited about mundane chores.
Tell her people who don’t accept the bullshit don’t get any of the good stuff, either. You can use me; I’m living proof. I opted out of the scary bullshit and it basically cost me half my adult life.
A small point, but the job situation here in the U.K. is truly dire. We have over 2M officially unemployed, more unable to work, with huge public sector cutbacks still to come. Even menial jobs are few and far between with many many candidates for each position.
Reading some of the replies has really reminded me of my own situation in my early twenties. Severe depression had led to me dropping out of uni. I was back at my mother’s, I had no money, no job, no friends, no life, basically - nothing but a lot of dept. All I wanted to do was stay in bed and hide from the world.
There was no way Mum was going to let that happen. She forced me out of bed every morning, bright and early (to instill in me the habit of having to get up early for work) and gave me a list of chores - sometimes going round companies and agencies with my CV, sometimes round the house, sometimes just to get out of the house and go for a walk. At the end of each day, she’d check to see what had been done.
It was awful. I never got a minute’s peace, because Mum never stopped kicking my arse. I hated her at times - tears, tantrums, threats, nothing worked on her. She was sympathetic, but insistant - I was not going to waste my life on her watch. I should add that there was never any chance of her kicking me out. She’s always made it clear that no matter what I do or don’t do I will always have a home with her - it just won’t be a very easy or pleasant one so long as I’m not using my potential!
I got a McJob in a call centre, eventually. I hated it, and would cry every morning at the thought of having to go there. Mum would give me a hug, tell me she was proud of me - then send me off to work.
Gradually, throught a series of shit jobs,I began to move up the career ladder. Now, ten years later, I’m a Senior HR Advisor for one the top 50 organisations in the UK, I’m halfway through an MA, I’m happily married, I have a good income, a lovely home, a fantastic social life and loads of friends. I still have a fabulous, loving, supportive mum.
Oh, and similarly to your daughter, when I was younger I wanted to be an actress. It didn’t happen for me, as it doesn’t happen for most people. But in my spare time I run a theatre company, and I also act, write and direct - I spent the summer at the Edinburgh festival, performing in an original piece created by my theatre group.
I guarantee none of this would have happened had my mum gone easy on me - I’d probably still be in bed, hiding from the world.
You and your wife need to kick your daughter up the arse, repeatedly if necessary. She’ll hate you at the time.
She’ll thank you for it later.
Jennyrosity, thanks for your reply and everyone else.
We are trying to do for our daughter what your Mum did for you and as you said are currently experiencing the tantrums and arguments. Guess we need to stay strong, I agree that throwing her out onto the street would be worse than her not working and as others have said the job situation in the UK is not great at present. From a personal point of view, I should graduate my PhD in six months or so, but have no idea what will follow as the job market is very poor. This gives me a measure of sympathy, but I will do whatever I need to to pay the bills. Maybe this approach is something that comes in time.
We will keep pushing her and making lists of jobs to do each day, hopefully it will have a positive outcome.
Interesting…as a depressive myself, I’ve considered the idea of going deeper into my depression, “breaking” myself as it were. Not something anyone should attempt without caring help - but good on you for doing it.
It sounds as if you had to learn there was no way out of your misery but straight into the thick of it, and that your mum had to be there to make sure that a. you took your whacks and came back for more, and b. you had love and a reminder of why it had to be.
That’s a tough role, because the caregiver has to learn not to care about their loved one in some very important ways - such as the depression itself. If you do it this way, the depressive feelings have to be scourged and beaten into submission. Inevitably the sufferer will feel that they themselves are being scourged and beaten - and they’ll have to learn the brute discipline of submitting.
Speaking frankly though, I am a little concerned that you see conquering depression as a matter of material and social achievement. You mention your work before your marriage, and you minimize your acting cred by saying what’s “not going to happen” - despite what happened.
I think - maybe you do too - that it’s essential to be able to find value and learning in experiences we hate. Not just to take something worth while from an otherwise bad experience, but to learn that there are essential things in life that we can’t learn without experiencing - sometimes even seeking and prolonging - misery.
I have a 19 year old son, whom I love dearly, in much the same situation living with his mother. He is an intelligent boy who has been largely unmotivated to do much of anything for several years. I practically had to walk him (literally) through getting his driver’s license at age 18, and this is a quasi-rural community where you need a car to get anywhere. He barely graduated high school, and would only rarely do his homework.
His main issue is that he is addicted to video games and spends most of his day on the console. He lives with my ex and she is content to natter at him occasionally, but leave him be most of the time. He has failed out of community college, and is currently making no real effort to find a job. He’s not antisocial or resentful and will do simple tasks if he’s pointed at them and directed, but there is absolutely no inclination to get out of the house and do anything.
Having said all this I believe he is a an intelligent boy with the potential to do anything he wants. I have begged my ex over and over to unplug him, but she says that she does not want to be a “tyrant” (seriously, this is verbatim). He understands quite clearly that this bubble boy, comfort zone lifestyle would be over in a fetmosecond if he lived with me, so he has no desire to do that.
Like the people that weigh 600 lbs this scenario cannot exist without an enabler. My ex is 52 going on 16, has absolutely zero social life outside work, and really (I believe) has no desire to see him leave.
The bottom line in this is that the reality is that there are people in this life who are not go getters, and are largely reactive not proactive. They are not evil or mentally ill, they would simply prefer to relax and be passive as much as possible. It’s what they prefer and is their comfort zone. They can have good and fulfilling lives, but will have to be forced and directed at the point of hard sanctions and consequences to acquire skill sets with which they can support themselves. Shaming will not work. Possibly one day they will have an epiphany and get moving, but based on my life observations over half a century this is the exception, not the norm.
The upshot is that you are going to have to enforce hard requirements on her to get moving or move out. Being kind and gentle and patient, and hopeful, and talking it out, and getting a therapist is (IMO) largely a waste of time. Being lazy is her preference and her predilection. It’s not a moral judgement it’s simply the way she’s wired. You need to understand this, if you don’t you are spinning your wheels.
I think you’ve missed my point somewhat. I didn’t conquer my depression through social and material achievement, though they have been pleasant outcomes of it. I mentioned them first because they’re more relevant to the OP - who’s worrying about whether his daughter will find employment or further education.
And my mum’s actions didn’t force me deeper into depression, or to “submit” to anything. They helped pull me out of it (I had medical help as well), and actually current cognitive behaviour therapy advocates a lot of the things mum insisted I do - like getting out of the house every day, even if just for a short walk - as a form of therapy.
As for “minimising my acting cred”, no, I’m not going to be a famous actress. Neither will most people. But I am using my talents - all of them - in other ways, and that’s what matters.
The only point you make which I’d come close to agreeing with is that sometimes life can be bloody hard and you’ve just got to go through painful experiences. In the “Best Advice You’ve Ever Been Given” thread I mention something my mum said to me during that time of my life: “Sometimes, honey, you’ve just got to stand there and hurt”.
Walker in Eternity, yes, it is tough to be tough. Mum said there were times when she just wanted to wrap me up and say it’s ok, don’t worry about anything, I’ll take care of you, but she knew that wouldn’t help me long-term. What’s easy isn’t always - or even usually - what’s best.
And yes, the job market is terrible out there - I work in HR, as I mentioned, and both in my current and previous companies we had waiting lists for voluntary roles, and thousands of applications, often from graduates, for some of the lowest-paid jobs. Which is why it’s important your daughter does something to keep active and busy, and to try and gain some skills. Work experience, temp work, another college course, anything. It’s hard enough on the jobs market. It’s virtually impossible with a blank CV!
The way you’re describing them, they may not be evil or ill, but they’re not much better than that. It’s as if their utility as humans is low. That’s a troubling thought to have about humans: that unless they are useful, they are less human. Too bad; maybe we can turn them into soylent green or something.
Or maybe we can help them find what they’re good at, what they can do in a relaxed yet active mode. What are the last 6 letters in the word reactive? Maybe they can learn to build on that.
Hardness is a kind of shaming. Step one is making it clear that until you do x, y, z, you are lower, you are worse, you deserve less. It’s also somewhat of a fetish: it’s designed to gratify the hard person, or at least make them feel righteous.
The idea of laziness is always a moral judgment. Always and unavoidably. No one ever says it’s right to be lazy, or even morally neutral. What lazy means is that we know a person has something wrong inside them, but we don’t care about the inside, and we want to feel that not caring is right.
I can’t let you hide behind that (IMO). I’m going to turn your words on you. You imply the following:
“Being unkind, harsh, impatient, hopeless, enforcing silence, and denying outside help are productive ways of dealing with unmotivated or passive people.”
Agree?
There is a big difference between being reactive and being lazy; my natural inclination is to be proactive, but not all my bosses have wanted it that way and not all the good coworkers I’ve had were that way.
Jennyrosity, loved your posts.
For whatever reason, you are apparently determined to keep trying to construe this as a moral judgement issue you can repudiate and sneer at despite my admonition that it is not. However, you are correct that “lazy” is a loaded word. Perhaps I should use “low energy”. That some people are “low energy” is not a news flash. This is hardly a revelation, it doesn’t make them “ill” or “bad”. A good chunk of humanity is like this.
If you have a “low energy” person you are trying to get on task there are hard practicalities in how you have to go about it. It’s not all that complicated. It’s a PITA and involves enforcing reasonable sanctions and getting a lot of initial push back, drama, and game playing by the low energy person so they can maintain their preferred lifestyle. The real heavy lifting is keeping yourself focused on the task of helping the low energy person, and not getting played by the innumerable stratagems they will initially employ to try and return to their preferred comfort rut.