So on Reddit, someone made a dumb-assed comment about how most people are fine either way(getting vaccinated or not) because the death rate is only like 2%.
I replied that I didn’t understand the argument against getting vaccinated- it’s 100% effective against death, 95% effective against serious illness, and 100% effective against making you look like you’re ignorant AF.
Someone else replied to me that they’re a healthcare professional, and that they and all their co-workers and heatlhcare acquaintances are generally holding off getting vaccinated until they’ve seen if it has longer-term side effects, and making choices about what they’re putting in their bodies.
I know that this is still ignorant, but I’m not sure how to attack that exactly; I can’t really argue that they don’t have a right to make choices about their bodies, and the long-term effects are not yet known, so I’m kind of at a loss as to how to argue against that in any but the weakest ways (“well, we don’t expect long-term side effects from the vaccines, but we don’t know” kind of stuff).
How much do they trust having Covid in their bodies? And passing it on to others. And Covid also has known long-term effects for some – including for people who didn’t get very sick.
“Do you have 50 family and friends? Without vaccinations you’re condemning one of them to die.”
The problem with countering the “just 2%” thinking is that those making it are just looking at it from their standpoint and they’re right that it is very unlikely that they’ll die. You can’t rationalize away selfish thinking.
Ontario has 14M people and due to Covid about 300K mammograms are delayed. That is about 2.5% of the population, 5% of women, and about 12% of women between 50-80 which is the target group for mammograms.
I don’t know what the incidence of cancer in that group is, but some percentage will die because their cancer is not detected in time. They will not die of Covid, but they will die because of Covid.
Now add in ALL cancers and see where the bodies lie.
In addition we have NO free ICU beds, in fact they have set up field hospitals and have even routed adults to pediatric hospitals. So if you have a heart attack you may die because there is no bed for you.
If Covid was truly the flu we wouldn’t have these issues.
It was the second person who seemed to think that it was a reasonable and rational position to delay being vaccinated in the name of “making choices about what I put in my body” and unknown long-term effects of the vaccines. They’re the one I wasn’t sure how to reply to- neither of those things is actually unreasonable, but vaccination seems like the lesser risk and especially for healthcare people, I’d argue they have an ethical duty to get vaccinated.
“If I have to choose between advice from anonymous people that claim to be doctors, and advice from non-anonymous people with medical degrees and verified training in appropriate fields, the latter generally wins out.”
Choosing what to put in their bodies? I know there were “covid parties” but how much greater was the number of people who had no choice of what went into their bodies when they encountered other people who were shedding the virus.
We are now standing in the arena before two doors (but unlike Frank Stockton’s Lady or the Tiger story) the doors are labelled “Vaccinated” or “Catch the wild virus”, and we must choose one door. There is no other realistic choice.
I think it’s some sort of feeling that borders on woo; basically they’re distrustful of the idea of a rapidly developed vaccine, and are not wanting to take it because of potential side effects that haven’t been researched yet. Kind of like the reticence to eat GMO, honestly.
We understand how and why the vaccine works- this isn’t shooting in the dark by any means.
“Healthcare professional” is a pretty wide field. I’ve seen a lot of x-ray techs and LPNs touting their “healthcare professional” credentials while being covid deniers. One dude on a local Facebook group was going off on an emergency room RN who is on the front line, claiming his credentials make him more knowledgeable. He is a chiropractor.
Also “what we put in our bodies” is an absolute joke. People don’t pay attention to the ingredients in their food and drink. People smoke and drink to excess, and take pills to counteract the consequences. People don’t treat their bodies as temples. But suddenly they’re worried about their meatbags on a cellular level and are un-trusting of a vaccine with every scientific eye in the world on it? Yeah, you so smart.
In this case I think that an “will no one think of the children?” appeal might help, because even self centered people usually care about their kids or their nieces and nephews or the kids in their neighborhood.
Point out the more unvaccinated people there are, the more chances covid has to mutate. It’s almost certainly just a matter of time before one of the mutations makes covid much better at making children as sick as adults. Do they really want helping bring that about on their conscience?
Not if the the decision is made with disregard to how it was arrived at.
“Think of the children!” is countered by “I am protecting children from a possibly unsafe vaccine”
“What about herd immunity?” is countered by “So if enough people get vaccinated I don’t have to?”
But then there are the long term effects if you survive- heart and lung damage, and mental health issues.
…even young, otherwise healthy people can feel unwell for weeks to months after infection. Common signs and symptoms that linger over time include:
** Fatigue*
** Shortness of breath or difficulty breathing*
** Cough*
** Joint pain*
** Chest pain*
** Memory, concentration or sleep problems*
** Muscle pain or headache*
** Fast or pounding heartbeat*
** Loss of smell or taste*
** Depression or anxiety*
** Fever*
** Dizziness when you stand*
** Worsened symptoms after physical or mental activities*
### Organ damage caused by COVID-19
Although COVID-19 is seen as a disease that primarily affects the lungs, it can damage many other organs as well. This organ damage may increase the risk of long-term health problems. Organs that may be affected by COVID-19 include:
** Heart. Imaging tests taken months after recovery from COVID-19 have shown lasting damage to the heart muscle, even in people who experienced only mild COVID-19 symptoms. This may increase the risk of heart failure or other heart complications in the future.*
** Lungs. The type of pneumonia often associated with COVID-19 can cause long-standing damage to the tiny air sacs (alveoli) in the lungs. The resulting scar tissue can lead to long-term breathing problems.*
** Brain. Even in young people, COVID-19 can cause strokes, seizures and Guillain-Barre syndrome — a condition that causes temporary paralysis. COVID-19 may also increase the risk of developing Parkinson’s disease and Alzheimer’s disease.*
Some adults and children experience multisystem inflammatory syndrome after they have had COVID-19. In this condition, some organs and tissues become severely inflamed.
Not to mention the $100000 hospital bills- after insurance.
And then, even though you survive, you have passed it on to others, who have passed on, etc, so you are quite likely responsible for many deaths.
I hope that those not vaccinated will wear masks and distance. That, too, is natural selection.
There will be 2% fewer idiots next time around.
On a lighter note, will mask wearing continue when Covid is a thing of the past?
I think wearing a mask when one has influenza is an excellent idea. It warns people that I am ill, and want to be left the hell alone.
This won’t convince anybody, but I’m wondering — how thorough was the testing for some of the older existing vaccines, like tetanus, pertussis, and diphtheria?
They might have been re-tested when combined into current formulations, but the diseases are now so rare that benefit could never have been so well quantified as with a common disease like COVID.
As a baby I was given a smallpox vaccine that must have been developed when testing standards were lower.
Edward Jenner didn’t wait around all that long before writing to doctors at home and abroad of his discovery. That was prudent because the more common the disease, the less test time is needed.
Some of the reluctant people may have over-learned the thalidomide lesson, which concerns what to look for rather than how long to test. Because they weren’t then looking for angiogenesis effects — and because taking it for morning sickness was off-label — many additional years of testing would not have helped.
I’m also wondering — are these doctors and nurses just refusing COVID vaccines, and up to date on all the rest? Or do they generally ignore standard immunization schedules?
The smallpox vaccine is an example of a highly successful vaccine that also came with its share of side effects, occasionally serious. While it’s hard to argue against a vaccine that completely eradicated a killer disease, it’s doubtful that vaccine would be approved today.
As stated earlier, people who argue against vaccination from the exalted status of “healthcare professional” could be a lab tech or someone who works in the hospital library (though there unfortunately nurses and doctors who fall into the category of vaccine hesitant or outright antivaxers). There is no good justification for holding off on Covid-19 vaccination based on fear of unspecified long-term effects, given the clinical trials results and amount of time we’ve had to evaluate use in the general population. What side effects you’re going to see typically manifest in hours to days, not months or years down the line. The vehicles used for Covid-19 vaccine delivery are new, but the science is solid and the end result (production of protective antibodies) is what all vaccines do.
Arguments against Covid-19 vaccination are similar to the bogus ones that have been advanced against vaccination in general - hyping of tenuous, nonexistent or extremely rare side effects, fears of imaginary vaccine “toxins” (while disregarding the major league toxins caused by infection), resentment of authority/experts and so on.
Ironically, an ad that shows up for me in this thread is for something that promises to “cleanse” a fatty liver. Yeah, surrre.
Yeah, unspecified “healthcare professional” can mean nursing home worker. The more educated the healthcare professional, the more likely they are to get vaccinated: MD’s are much more likely than CNA’s. Why would that be?